[jdonn]

mike777, on Jun 2 2007, 09:58 PM, said:

Learned something useful from LHO bid and RHO bid after my pass.
Expected but expected is useful.

Please a specific example? Just one? I guess what I'm getting at is I can't think of a single way the auction could continue that would tell you anything useful to you, so I'm asking for just one measly way that could happen.

[mike777]

jdonn, on Jun 2 2007, 10:01 PM, said:

mike777, on Jun 2 2007, 09:58 PM, said:

Learned something useful from LHO bid and RHO bid after my pass.
Expected but expected is useful.

Please a specific example? Just one? I guess what I'm getting at is I can't think of a single way the auction could continue that would tell you anything useful to you, so I'm asking for just one measly way that could happen.

This hand is a specific example of course....very specific.

They bid something expected than unexpected. I learned something compared to if they bid try for slam or minor suit game. Even if we assume the bidding went as expected, nothing new on this particular hand we may have on another auction than the assumed. In any case if we were going to bid 4H on previous round has anything changed? Yes or NO I learned something. IF nothing changes, that is new information for me.

[jdonn]

mike777, on Jun 2 2007, 10:17 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jun 2 2007, 10:01 PM, said:

mike777, on Jun 2 2007, 09:58 PM, said:

Learned something useful from LHO bid and RHO bid after my pass.
Expected but expected is useful.

Please a specific example? Just one? I guess what I'm getting at is I can't think of a single way the auction could continue that would tell you anything useful to you, so I'm asking for just one measly way that could happen.

This hand is a specific example of course....very specific.

They bid something expected than unexpected. I learned something compared to if they bid try for slam or minor suit game. Even if we assume the bidding went as expected, nothing new on this particular hand we may have on another auction than the assumed. In any case if we were going to bid 4H on previous round has anything changed? Yes or NO I learned something. IF nothing changes, that is new information for me.

I don't know if you are dodging the question or really not understanding. One specific AUCTION please that will help you later in the hand, and how it will help you, if you pass now.

[mike777]

jdonn, on Jun 2 2007, 10:28 PM, said:

mike777, on Jun 2 2007, 10:17 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jun 2 2007, 10:01 PM, said:

mike777, on Jun 2 2007, 09:58 PM, said:

Learned something useful from LHO bid and RHO bid after my pass.
Expected but expected is useful.

Please a specific example? Just one? I guess what I'm getting at is I can't think of a single way the auction could continue that would tell you anything useful to you, so I'm asking for just one measly way that could happen.

This hand is a specific example of course....very specific.

They bid something expected than unexpected. I learned something compared to if they bid try for slam or minor suit game. Even if we assume the bidding went as expected, nothing new on this particular hand we may have on another auction than the assumed. In any case if we were going to bid 4H on previous round has anything changed? Yes or NO I learned something. IF nothing changes, that is new information for me.

I don't know if you are dodging the question or really not understanding. One specific AUCTION please that will help you later in the hand, and how it will help you, if you pass now.

I answered your question in full, you seem to not understand. The expected information is as helpful as new information. Not sure how I can be more specific, oh well. I have now said this at least 3 times.

Let me back up, is more information helpful very often than less information?
Do you have more information with a pass? If you think you have zero more useful information than I agree pass was a wash, not hurtful.

Do you have useful information with a pass Josh? If not then a wash.

[jdonn]

mike777, on Jun 2 2007, 10:30 PM, said:

I answered your question in full, you seem to not understand. The expected information is as helpful as new information. Not sure how I can be more specific, oh well. I have now said this at least 3 times.

Let me back up, is more information helpful very often than less information?
Do you have more information with a pass? If you think you have zero more useful information than I agree pass was a wash, not hurtful.

Do you have useful information with a pass Josh? If not then a wash.

3♣ p 3♠ is specific. "The expected information is as helpful as new information." is not specific. I give up, thanks for the enlightening discussion.

[kenrexford]

jdonn, on Jun 3 2007, 12:45 AM, said:

mike777, on Jun 2 2007, 10:30 PM, said:

I answered your question in full, you seem to not understand.  The expected information is as helpful as new information. Not sure how I can be more specific, oh well. I have now said this at least 3 times.

Let me back up, is more information helpful very often than less information?
Do you have more information with a pass? If you think you have zero more useful information than I agree pass was a wash, not hurtful.

Do you have useful information with a pass Josh? If not then a wash.

3♣ p 3♠ is specific. "The expected information is as helpful as new information." is not specific. I give up, thanks for the enlightening discussion.

Too early to leave -- this was enjopyable from the sidelines.

Devil's Advocate time. You have 12 HCP's. RHO has made a GF bid, presumably with at least 12 HCP's, but probably 13. LHO has opened with somewhere in the remaining HCP range of maybe an 11 minimum to the absolute maximum of 16.

If only 11, opposite the probable 13, partner might remotely have an Ace somewhere. If partner has the heart Ax, you might need to decide whether to drop the heart King, or perhaps even to finesse the heart King and smother the Jack. That decision, however, seems implausible, as RHO will not have the stiff Jack. So, it seems that little can be gleaned in hearts. Even Kx offers little as to play, for the same reason.

No club card from partner matters. Nor does a diamond card.

What about AJ10 in spades? That seems too remote of a possibility.

How about Q109 in spades? That might be an issue to resolve later. I like that problem. So, let's go with that.

That holding, only, gives us a combined 14 and the opponents 26. If RHO has 13, then LHO must have 13 also. Even if RHO has a mere 12, then LHO has only 14. It seems unnlikely that Opener could be slammish with such a weak hand.

But, who knows what they play. Maybe Opener's 3♣ call simply expresses long clubs with uncertainty about notrump play. He does seem likely to be short in hearts. Suppose the auction is 1♣-P-2NT-P-3♣-P-3♥-P-3♠-P-3NT. Suppose that you find out that 3♣ showed an unbalanced hand, 3♥ showed heart stopped but not diamonds, and 3♠ showed diamonds stopped but not spades, 3NT indicating spades covered.

Now you bid 4♥. Assume a neutral trump or club lead. If you have no transportation, you may finesse the spades for Opener to have the Jack, figuring that the spade Ace is odds-on to the right, denying an entry if RHO has AJx anyway.

On a different auction, such as Opener bidding 3NT after 3♥, you might instead play the Queen, expecting to win, and then finesse RHO for the Jack. Or, you might even remotely have a spade-diamond or spade-diamond-club squeeze now made possible.

I'll agree that this is extremely remote, but the gauntlet was thrown down to show ANY auction that might help.

[jdonn]

I got an answer! You're the man Ken.