[Gerben42]

I've always called it the 5431 convention (in Dutch, English, German, whatever) after the Polish name. I don't think it has another name.

As for keeping score: It came up twice for me.

Quote

They call them wizard splinters over here.

All that time I thought you were at a prestigious American university and it turns out you are studying Thaumaturgy...

[jtfanclub]

Al_U_Card, on May 23 2007, 09:27 AM, said:

Now, in 20,000 hands or so (man, maybe 50,000 or more) I have played both 3 something as the slam invite with a 6 card suit or the fragment version......and it has never come up!

Surely there are hands with a higher frequency that could be better served by using those 4 (almost totally) idle bids.....

Seems like you could replace other bids with them, for example.....

3♣=4♣ Gerber. If you're missing two aces, you can stop at 3NT.
3♦=miniTexas...you can raise it to 4 for standard Texas, or pass for a simple pre-empt. Unlikely the opponents are going to want to come in at the 4 level!
3♥=miniTexas
3♠=a 4NT raise. Partner bids 3NT if he'd pass a 4NT invite, and otherwise bids as he would over 4NT, just one level lower. It also has the advantage that it can be used to decide between 6NT and a 7 bid, since it's absolutely forcing.

[Fluffy]

I know of people who play 3♥/♠ showing 4 cards in the other major and balanced.

I am pretty sure this comes more often.

[Al_U_Card]

jtfanclub, on May 23 2007, 09:59 AM, said:

Al_U_Card, on May 23 2007, 09:27 AM, said:

Now, in 20,000 hands or so (man, maybe 50,000 or more) I have played both 3 something as the slam invite with a 6 card suit or the fragment version......and it has never come up!

Surely there are hands with a higher frequency that could be better served by using those 4 (almost totally) idle bids.....

Seems like you could replace other bids with them, for example.....

3♣=4♣ Gerber. If you're missing two aces, you can stop at 3NT.
3♦=miniTexas...you can raise it to 4 for standard Texas, or pass for a simple pre-empt. Unlikely the opponents are going to want to come in at the 4 level!
3♥=miniTexas
3♠=a 4NT raise. Partner bids 3NT if he'd pass a 4NT invite, and otherwise bids as he would over 4NT, just one level lower. It also has the advantage that it can be used to decide between 6NT and a 7 bid, since it's absolutely forcing.

This I like, but surely there are even better uses like puppet asking about 5 card majors with 33 hands in the majors or preemptive bids instead of transfer relays...the 4 suit transfer bid to a minor HAS come up about 5 times in those 50,000 or so....

[Al_U_Card]

Or even 3♣ is keycard for ♥ (you have 4+) and 3♦ is keycard for ♠ and any bid of NT by responder is then to play (He will pass 3NT when that response is correct too)
3♥ is the Quantitative invite with a good minor
3♠ is the Quantitative invite with a balanced hand.

Any other ideas?

[cherdano]

Wizard splinter is obviously a better name than 5431 convention.

[jdonn]

All these bids are not as uncommon as you make them seem, they certainly come up for me. But also, frequency is not the only issue, if you change the meaning of those bids it should be to fill a hole. Using it for easy stayman hands or quantitative bids has negligible value since these are easily biddable hands anyway. It is minor suit oriented hands that don't otherwise have good bids after a 1NT opening.

[han]

It came up yesterday for us.

[Gerben42]

Quote

I know of people who play 3♥/♠ showing 4 cards in the other major and balanced.

I know a convention for this! Stay... doh! forgot it I see the point of this convention but I'm not sure it's useful.

[goobers]

Actually I saw that mentioned on Mike Develin's blog; I believe he called it one of his favorite gadgets.

The purpose is to conceal opener's major suit holding, so the defense have a tougher time. Apparently it really came through for them, as 3NT at all the other tables went down because of a different lead from the normal stayman auction.

All this is paraphrased, I'll go double check his post later.

[han]

Gerben42, on May 23 2007, 01:04 PM, said:

Quote

I know of people who play 3♥/♠ showing 4 cards in the other major and balanced.

I know a convention for this! Stay... doh! forgot it I see the point of this convention but I'm not sure it's useful.

Really? I think it is a great idea. For the people who play this, would you bid it with 4333's too?

I like wizard splinters too so it's a tough choice.

[Cascade]

Hannie, on May 24 2007, 08:09 AM, said:

Gerben42, on May 23 2007, 01:04 PM, said:

Quote

I know of people who play 3♥/♠ showing 4 cards in the other major and balanced.

I know a convention for this! Stay... doh! forgot it I see the point of this convention but I'm not sure it's useful.

Really? I think it is a great idea. For the people who play this, would you bid it with 4333's too?

I like wizard splinters too so it's a tough choice.

What is a wizard splinter?

[keylime]

I call 'em lightning splinters; as in when they come up it jars you like a bolt of lightning, and...I love the hockey team of its name.

[han]

Cascade, on May 23 2007, 04:01 PM, said:

Hannie, on May 24 2007, 08:09 AM, said:

Gerben42, on May 23 2007, 01:04 PM, said:

Quote

I know of people who play 3♥/♠ showing 4 cards in the other major and balanced.

I know a convention for this! Stay... doh! forgot it I see the point of this convention but I'm not sure it's useful.

Really? I think it is a great idea. For the people who play this, would you bid it with 4333's too?

I like wizard splinters too so it's a tough choice.

What is a wizard splinter?

See page 2 of this thread:

Quote

They call them wizard splinters over here.

[karlson]

Hannie, on May 23 2007, 12:09 PM, said:

Really? I think it is a great idea. For the people who play this, would you bid it with 4333's too?

I play this with many people, and yeah, we'll bid it on 4333 sometimes. Basically it's the same question of whether you'd stayman with 4333. I remember a thread on this a while ago and certainly people admitted that they'd stayman at least sometimes, so I don't see why this would be different. I believe we play 1n-3h-3s as cog (probably 4333), so sometimes you can get out in 3n even with the 4-4.

Ironically, we do have a way to show the wizard splinter over the 2n opener.

[karlson]

Also, when I played wizard, it was actually reversed (so 3s showed 3-1 and 3h showed 1-3). The wrong hand plays it if you end up playing the major, but otoh, they don't get to double as often. Thoughts? Of course it never came up, so I can't tell you how it worked out.

[Impact]

Yep , I also play it as fragment style - and have for about 20 years....for that reason and also because my general preference has been to bid length rather than shortness:-

my responses 3NT: T
4m: good with definite choice of suit: sets suit
4fragment: T
4 shortM= slammish asks for SHORTER minor eg with both minors
4NT= slammish asking for longer minor
5m= T min placing contract after picture bid

Bear in mind that I tend to use these bids with hands which cannot afford to relay as room insufficient to find opener's shape and concentration below 3NT, hence there is a ceiling on my use of the picture bid which may not be applicable to others.


regards

[jdonn]

One note about the convention, it's much superior to bid the shortness. Hiding opener's hand is very important since if that hand is exposed the defense is double dummy. Letting them double the shortness showing bid seems insignificant to me, what are they going to do sacrifice?

[MickyB]

jdonn, on May 24 2007, 05:29 PM, said:

One note about the convention, it's much superior to bid the shortness. Hiding opener's hand is very important since if that hand is exposed the defense is double dummy. Letting them double the shortness showing bid seems insignificant to me, what are they going to do sacrifice?

Possibly, but more likely find the right lead. I'm not sure which method is better.

FWIW, I play 1N:3M as 4M 0-1oM and with (13)(45) or (13)(36) I xfer to the minor then bid the fragment. This was lifted from Charlie Garrod's modification of Keri, but I prefer it with Stayman+4 suit xfers.

[jdonn]

So you transfer to the minor first with 5? I don't think I like the sound of that at all... I play this convention with Justin, but the 3♥ shortness showing bid could have 3 or 4 spades and there is still room to sort it out (3♠ by opener 3NT by responder), that helps some.