[Miron]

Scoring: IMP

---

1♠ - pass - 1NT* - pass
2♥ - pass - ?

We play 2/1, so 1NT is forsing (2♥ is GF), 2♥ is 5-4 or better.
Do you try slam?

I bid 5♥ as the ask for heart honors. My idea was:

• I don't have 13+ HCP.
  
• I have to have some shortness (if I'm not comletely crazy).
  
• I don't have minor shortness (as I would bid it).
  
• Partner promised 5-4 and still 12 HCP.

The conclusion imho could be that I'm void in spade and ask not only for heart honors but also for his spade cards.

Makes this bidding this sence? If yes, should I try it?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I think, 4H is enough.

You have a nice hand, but to try for
slam, needs a partner who always opens
rock solid, ... 5-4 with 12HCP ok, but
how about 6-4 with 10 / 11?

The shortness in spade is a factor for
downgrading.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Fluffy]

When I read the post I was thinking that you though bidding game was too agressive lol.

I've seen similar hand with problems to make 4 with only 4 hearts, with 5th it can be easier, but still you have too many spades to cope for

[Miron]

If I take Lawrence's I Fought the Law counting:
Partner has (maximum) 4 cards in minors that is SST: 13-4 =9
My spade void is makes 9+3 = 12.
With 19-21 working points, we can make 6♥.
I have 9 WP, can partner have 10-12 WP?
I think yes. And if he gets that I'm void in spade he can evaluate his hand quite precisely.

And partner can have only 3 minor cards...

I had not tried 6♥ only because of some law, but it always helps when any reasonable law says it's not completly wrong.

[coyot]

I'd say it's a reasonable attempt - partner could be able to figure out the spade void - and with good values in the side suits go for the slam.

I'd even say "nice try" if 5♥ goes one down

[Fluffy]

I don't knwo about the math around law and that.

I just can think of a perfect minimum namely

xxxxx
AKxx
KQx
x

Wich is way too good.

It doesn't make 6 cold.

---

Give him a more likelly

KJ9xx
AQxx
Qx
Qx

and 5 is not gonna make, maybe 4 won't as well

[Flame]

Its ok to think of slam here but not to go over 4♥.
The idea of showing your void is good, maybe you can agree on doing it in another way, maybe 3NT ?
Btw did i mention that I fought the law is imo the worse bridge book ever writen?

[mike777]

Miron, on May 16 2007, 03:55 AM, said:

If I take Lawrence's I Fought the Law counting:
Partner has (maximum) 4 cards in minors that is SST: 13-4 =9
My spade void is makes 9+3 = 12.
With 19-21 working points, we can make 6♥.
I have 9 WP, can partner have 10-12 WP?
I think yes. And if he gets that I'm void in spade he can evaluate his hand quite precisely.

And partner can have only 3 minor cards...

I had not tried 6♥ only because of some law, but it always helps when any reasonable law says it's not completly wrong.

I have no idea how you are getting your FTL

1) You guess your combined two shortest suits. That means if partner is 2-2 it is 13-2=11 tricks. If he has a stiff it is 13-1=12 tricks.
2) Now you need to guess your combined working hcp. In this case you may very well have less than 19 working hcp with spade wastage.

[whereagles]

I would definitely make some move. Can't have much better than this... even considering the likely spade wastage.

[ulven]

4C should be splinter in spades. WAY more frequent than club-splinter considering your didn't raise spades.

A similar variant, I picked up almost 20 years ago. 1S-2D; 2H-4C is splinter in spades as well.

[fred]

Your methods deserve at least as much blame as your judgment.

For sure you should think about slam, but only if you have a way to say "we might have a heart slam" that does not force the partnership to the 5-level.

Consider using the 3NT rebid in this auction to be a strong hand in support of hearts with shortness in spades.

Unless you play that 1NT could contain some hands with game-forcing values (like a balanced 13-count for example), there is no need for a natural 3NT when the bidding starts this way. You might as well use this bid for something and defining it as a hand that looks like this makes a lot of sense.

If your system does not allow you to use an artiificial 3NT here, then I suggest you give up on playing splinters in the minors and use 4C/4D as "fit-showing" bids in support of hearts.

In the absense of any of these agreements I agree with the other posters that 4H is better than 5H.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[ArcLight]

This hand does have the potential to make slam. The problem is, its not enough to have good trumps. It's likely that pard has wasted values in spades, especially something like KJ. You need pard to have either a great hand, or very little in spades. I'm not aware of a systemic way of asking "pard what do you have outside of spades, beyond good hearts". 5♥ asks for trump support, which is not enough.

Your chance of slam is probably a lot less than 50%.

4♥ is an excellent contract. I would sign off.



ulven,
As for 4♣ being a ♠ splinter, go ahead and spring that undiscussed with a pick up pard



Fred (and everyone else),
What are some of the ways (real) experts use 3NT by responder after a forcing NT?

>Consider using the 3NT rebid in this auction to be a strong hand in support of hearts with shortness in spades.

While this makes sense to me, how much does it cost?
I assume if responder had a crayy 13 HCP they could make a 2/1 then sign off.
If responded bids 2NT, that shows 11-12 (or a great 10).

The other question is how frequently will one use the 3NT bid in this manner? How often will this come up that the non-expert partnership (that plays once a week) will remember it in a year

I can imagine a set of agreements that make perfect sense, don't cost anything, but because they are rare might result in partnership forgets.

[fred]

Using 3NT as a spade splinter here would fall into the category of an "obscure convention" in my view.

In general I am not a fan of using obscure conventions unless you have a really serious partnership and unless both players are comfortable with the obscure convention in question.

This particular obscure convention has some safety attached to it because it acts as a "wake up call" - upon hearing partner bid 3NT a strong player will immediately realize that the bid is "impossible". That makes it hard to forget the convention when your partner uses it. Forgetting to use the convention is easier, but when you are dealt a hand like Miron's and are considering what to bid, a strong player's memory will likely be jogged by the thinking process.

As far as I can tell it is very common among the leading partnerships in the USA to use a 3NT rebid as a raise of opener's second suit. If opener's second suit is a minor there are various sensible ways you could define 3NT. If opener's second suit is hearts then using 3NT as I suggest (as a spade splinter in support of hearts) is clearly the most sensible way to use this bid in my view.

I suspect it is the case that most partnerships below the highest levels have not learned this trick yet, but maybe this post will change that

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[FrancesHinden]

It depends on the meaning of the 1NT response.
If you play it as forcing, then it's true that the 3NT bid the next round is pretty much impossible.

However, if you play 1NT as 'semi-forcing' - opener expected to pass on a balanced minimum - then 3NT has some use as showing a hand that's prepared to play game (possibly with a shortish heart honour upgraded). Only some use, because 2NT is also available to show a fairly maximum 1NT bid and opener may still be quite distributional.

[whereagles]

fred, on May 16 2007, 01:47 PM, said:

Using 3NT as a spade splinter here would fall into the category of an "obscure convention" in my view.

Obscure is an euphemism. It's a complete black hole!!!

[pclayton]

I play 3N as a splinter in opener's 2nd suit too in my favorite partnership.

I thought we had developed this ourselves as we were looking at the various rebids after a 1N response to a major coupled with 2N response to 1 maj as natural and balanced (and unlimited). We don't run in the same circles as Fred, so we aren't exposed to treatments like this; this was something that we just reasoned out.

This treatment has come up maybe once in the last two years.

[neilkaz]

I don't care for my void in PD's suit nor my weak trumps so in the absence of some of the before mentioned agreements I also just bid 4♥.

[pclayton]

Quote

I just can think of a perfect minimum namely

xxxxx
AKxx
KQx
x

Wich is way too good.

It doesn't make 6 cold.

Sure but add the ♥Q, or a 5th heart and slam is not only cold, but 7 starts to look appealing.

The OP's poster hand can be very slammish across from the right 2♥ call, but without the right tools, I think you need to take your medicine with a 4♥ rebid.

[redbird97]

4H seems plenty. The spade void is a liability, not a plus.