[bluecalm]

Scoring: MP

---

We are S.

pass - 2♥ - pass - 4♥
pass - pass - ????

How do you rate 4♠ with the intention to go to 5♦ if they double now ? I know I can go for 1100 but they are almost surely making and we need only 8 tricks to make it worthwhile + they will be reluctant to double in this vulnerability.

Thoughts ?

[flytoox]

The problem is not if you bid 4S will it be doubled.

The problem you should worry is: IF you bid 4S and your opponents suddenly find sth new and bid 6H, will you be sure you can get a plus score?

Dont forget pd is a passed hand.

[the hog]

I would do it. Very similar hand in the SWPT now being played in Canberra. Pd raised to 6 and it made!

[rogerclee]

IMO it is not ridiculous to play a balancing double in this position as Michaels.

[ggwhiz]

Since pard passed in 1st chair, I don't think it's unreasonable to shoot 3D over the 2H opener, thinking they have (at least) a game somewhere. Surely the 4H bid is no surprise and if passed back to me, 4S has its own safety valve. I hope.

4S on the given auction is a reasonable shot at MP's, You can't play if you are afraid of the dark.

[Jlall]

Bidding is absolutely ridiculous

[aguahombre]

Jlall, on Jan 20 2010, 11:01 PM, said:

Bidding is absolutely ridiculous

thank you. you restored my faith in youth.

[gnasher]

Jlall, on Jan 21 2010, 07:01 AM, said:

Bidding is absolutely ridiculous

Do you mean it's ridiculous to want to show a weakish two-suiter in this type of auction, or just that it's ridiculous to do it on this hand at this vulnerability?

I think it makes sense to use a delayed double in this sort of auction as a two-suiter that was too weak in high cards to bid over 2♥, at other vulnerabilities anyway. I'm not giving up much by playing that - I've never had a penalty double here.

[Jlall]

OP didn't really say anything about a special meaning for a X, in fact he asked about bidding 4S and running if doubled. My opinion is that that is ridiculous.

I don't know how it would work out to play X shows this hand, I've never played it. Probably I would not want to do it unless it also showed 0 tricks on defense or something, and even then I'd be skeptical... I'd rather do it on a better offensive or defensive hand.

In general I try not to assume non standard agreements that OP does not specify that would show my hand exactly though.

[Apollo81]

Even if they take the push to 5♥, they'll almost certainly make it. If they double, I think you're going for more than 500 -- and all this is assuming that you had a good way to show this hand, which you don't.

[ArtK78]

The only thing more ridiculous than bidding over 4♥ is bidding over 2♥.

Bidding over a preempt shows strength. So partner, even as a passed hand, is going to assume that you have a very good hand and that the hand belongs to us. The chance that we can get out of this alive are going to be slim or none.

The only advantage to bidding 3♦ over 2♥ is that you can then bid 4♠ over 4♥. At least you will have shown your distribution (even if you are overstating the value of your hand by about 2 aces minimum).

If you intended to bid 2♠ over 2♥ you are more of a masochist than I thought when you asked us about bidding 4♠ over 4♥.

[pooltuna]

bluecalm, on Jan 20 2010, 10:09 PM, said:

Dealer: North Vul: E/W Scoring: MP

♠ T8764 ♥ 5 ♦ KQ9843 ♣ 8

We are S.

pass - 2♥ - pass - 4♥
pass - pass - ????

How do you rate 4♠ with the intention to go to 5♦ if they double now ? I know I can go for 1100 but they are almost surely making and we need only 8 tricks to make it worthwhile + they will be reluctant to double in this vulnerability.

Thoughts ?

see my version of same auction

[jdonn]

I don't think it's stupid to think about bidding if you are unfamiliar with this type of situation. But it really is bad to bid, it takes one of a few really specific hand types with partner for it to be right and is likely to be a disaster.

[MFA]

A possible treatment is to differenciate between 3♥ and 4m in the first round as 'good' vs 'bad' Michaels. I would love to be able to bid 3♥ or 4♦ favourable over 2♥ with this hand (whichever would the 'bad' Michaels).

With normal agreements, I have to pass twice and hope for the best.

[aguahombre]

I think we need all our tools over preempts to show different types and degrees of good hands, and should not waste any of them in direct seat with bad hands.

[bluecalm]

Quote

In general I try not to assume non standard agreements that OP does not specify that would show my hand exactly though.

Yeah we didn't have that agreement and we don't want to make it. On (our) general principles double would be for penalty. Maybe not the best but at least no disagreements possible

Quote

Even if they take the push to 5♥, they'll almost certainly make it

Why ? It's matchpoints.. people stretch to overbid if vulnerable...

Quote

The only thing more ridiculous than bidding over 4♥ is bidding over 2♥.

I agree, that's why I passed

Quote

see my version of same auction 

Haha... Yeah but your only hope was to find good ♠ fit which partner would have doubled with having his share of high cards.
My hope is to find ♦ fit which he can very possible have even having quite a strong hand.

Quote

I think we need all our tools over preempts to show different types and degrees of good hands, and should not waste any of them in direct seat with bad hands.

I tend to agree but 3♥ is not used by us a lot. How do you play it ? We play 4♣/4♦ as leaping micheals but we didn't really discussed how good the hand should be for it (just use common sense which probably I don't have much of:) ).

[gnasher]

MFA, on Jan 21 2010, 05:38 PM, said:

A possible treatment is to differenciate between 3♥ and 4m in the first round as 'good' vs 'bad' Michaels. I would love to be able to bid 3♥ or 4♦ favourable over 2♥ with this hand (whichever would the 'bad' Michaels).

I like that idea. I never pick up the solid-suit type anyway.

It might be better to play 3♥ as weak or a real game-force, and 4m as non-forcing with the in-between hand.

[aguahombre]

We use cue of weak two in Major as great hand with the minors --leaping mike still available. Good hands weaker than leaping mike or cue, will just overcall. Might not be everyone's cup of tea, but it works for us. We don't worry about needing a cue to ask for a stopper, because sometimes advancer looks at her hand and sees the stopper all by herself.

edit: this was an answer to bluecalm's last question.

[Jlall]

Bluecalm, you keep saying that people stretch to overbid/take the push when red/white, I think you will find this to be much less true the better the opposition you play. It really is only the pretty weak guys who think they are geniuses who routinely take the push to the 5 level because they're red/white rather than just doubling. Of course owning those guys is fun if you know who they are heh.