[pirate22]

what does 2n/t reply convey to partner??
example north opens 1n/t 15-17 or 15-18 16/18 pass pard bids 2cl and opener rebids 2n/t playing transfers one can assume

regards

[Hanoi5]

Some people play the 2NT response to stayman as showing 4 cards in both Majors and a maximum of HCP's.

[aguahombre]

In the very old days when we didn't know any better, it showed a strange opening NT bid, maximum, with a very strong and long minor.

Today, I think it means the opener does not understand stayman.

[Fluffy]

it was very common around here to play 2NT both majors, still many old people do, so if you find this bidding and your pickup partner is spannish, you can bet he has both majors, but beware, you have to transfer the major you wana play in now.

Now that I remember, my father still teaches this sytem to beginners.

[jdonn]

Why would anyone want to play 2NT both majors? Why do you want to get higher if partner was going to pass your 2 of a major rebid? Not to mention restricting partner's options when a fit is known (how do you splinter in spades if you have a heart fit?) Never bid 2NT pls, ty.

[mike777]

jdonn, on Jan 8 2010, 08:10 PM, said:

Why would anyone want to play 2NT both majors? Why do you want to get higher if partner was going to pass your 2 of a major rebid? Not to mention restricting partner's options when a fit is known (how do you splinter in spades if you have a heart fit?) Never bid 2NT pls, ty.

He said it all and said it well.

[jjbrr]

Totally agree. Just say no.

[Hanoi5]

Quote

Why would anyone want to play 2NT both majors? Why do you want to get higher if partner was going to pass your 2 of a major rebid? Not to mention restricting partner's options when a fit is known (how do you splinter in spades if you have a heart fit?) Never bid 2NT pls, ty.

This is the kind of treatment (I mean 2NT for both Majors) that goes along with 'Stayman doesn't go out before 8 o'clock' (it sounds better in Spanish) and the reason why some LOL's are amazed when I put down dummy on a 2M contract with 7 or less HCP's after a 1NT opening. It's not that bad an agreement when you only stayman to invite to game or better...

[Old York]

Hanoi5, on Jan 9 2010, 01:52 PM, said:

Quote

Why would anyone want to play 2NT both majors? Why do you want to get higher if partner was going to pass your 2 of a major rebid? Not to mention restricting partner's options when a fit is known (how do you splinter in spades if you have a heart fit?) Never bid 2NT pls, ty.

This is the kind of treatment (I mean 2NT for both Majors) that goes along with 'Stayman doesn't go out before 8 o'clock' (it sounds better in Spanish) and the reason why some LOL's are amazed when I put down dummy on a 2M contract with 7 or less HCP's after a 1NT opening. It's not that bad an agreement when you only stayman to invite to game or better...

Rescue Stayman, Drop-dead Stayman and Stayman in Doubt are all reasonably well known. 1NT-2♣-2(any)-3♣ was also used as sign-off.
2♣ is used as a general range-enquiry by some, not promising a 4cM

Responding 2NT in an attempt to show both majors is illogical, and gives information to opponents.

And how do you continue?
1NT-2♣-2NT-3♠
Does this show hearts or spades? Is it forcing or sign-off or invitational?
Bidding 2NT in this way with pick-up partners is reckless

Tony

[Hanoi5]

You continue with transfers.

[Fluffy]

lol, it is not good, and it is not optimal for sure, what we are trying to show you is that it is indeed standard in some parts of the world.

In Barcelona they used to answer stayman with 2[dÎ]/♥/♠/NT/3♣/♦/♥/♠ showing all kinds of things, it was even worse than the 2NT thing.

I find ACOL system completelly horrible, but I understand it is standard for many people.

[manudude03]

People bidding 2NT as a response to stayman is not as bad as quite a few random, people on BBO seem to do over stayman and xfers. I've seen the sequence 1NT-2♣/♦/♥-3NT playing stayman/transfers way too many times.

I'm not certain, but I think I read somewhere that the 2NT response to stayman showing both majors and max is popular in France too. For it to be remotely playable, you must give up garbage stayman. I think the rebids are (all except 3NT):
3m- long minor with undisclosed major (3♥ asks for major, 3NT=♠)
3♥- focuses spades
3♠- focuses hearts.
3NT- (43)33
4♣ G****r
4♦/♥ transfers
4NT- 6ARKC (though "quantitative" is possible)

[Roupoil]

It is indeed totally Standard in SEF, though nowadays a lot of advanced/expert players use different Stayman (who said "less old-fashioned" ?). You still have to alert a Stayman which can contain hands with less than 8HCP in a club tournament if you don't want to declare war to your opponents...

[Old York]

Quote "You continue with transfers. "

I have seen the bid made many times showing both majors, but not showing a maximum. Perhaps this is the problem.
1NT-2♣-2NT-3♠(trf)-4♥ going 1 down was bad when opener was minimum

Tony

[nigel_k]

Fluffy, on Jan 10 2010, 01:37 PM, said:

lol, it is not good, and it is not optimal for sure, what we are trying to show you is that it is indeed standard in some parts of the world.

In Barcelona they used to answer stayman with 2[dÎ]/♥/♠/NT/3♣/♦/♥/♠ showing all kinds of things, it was even worse than the 2NT thing.

I find ACOL system completelly horrible, but I understand it is standard for many people.

These Stayman replies are not any kind of Acol that I have ever heard of.

[P_Marlowe]

pirate22, on Jan 8 2010, 07:12 PM, said:

what does 2n/t reply convey to partner??
example north opens 1n/t 15-17 or 15-18 16/18 pass pard bids 2cl and opener rebids 2n/t playing transfers one can assume

regards

Part of the French standard system is, that a 2NT response to 2C stayman showes 4-4
in the major.
Part of Australian Stayman is, that a 2NT response toa 2V stayman showes no 4 card
major and min.

Take your pick.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: If you happen to play with a pickup, you know, that your partner is not an expert.

[P_Marlowe]

nigel_k, on Jan 10 2010, 03:41 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Jan 10 2010, 01:37 PM, said:

lol, it is not good, and it is not optimal for sure, what we are trying to show you is that it is indeed standard in some parts of the world.

In Barcelona they used to answer stayman with 2[dÎ]/♥/♠/NT/3♣/♦/♥/♠ showing all kinds of things, it was even worse than the 2NT thing.

I find ACOL system completelly horrible, but I understand it is standard for many people.

These Stayman replies are not any kind of Acol that I have ever heard of.

Australian Stayman, and since (as far as I know) Australia IS Acol land ...

A description of Australian Stayman:

http://www.jackbridge.com/ejoconv.htm

The memonic is "diamonds are girls best friends" - the diamond responses
show the 4-4.

There are certain advantages playing Australian Stayman, and I would say
there are far worse conventions out there.
We did play is while, but we stopped to play it, as we decided to switch to
weak NT.

I dont want to restart the discussion, but you dont really need weak stayman,
if you happen to play a strong NT, playing a weak NT, you have more need for
a convention to rescue out of a hopeless NT, but of course that is just my opinion,
and everyone can have its own opinion.

And if you abolish the weak option, you get the possibility to add more answers
to the stayman inquiry, one may or may not think this a good idea.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[pirate22]

Now im getting more and more confused----my subject was aimed at sayc or sayc2/1----reference acol never heard 1n/t 2c 2n/t was max with both majors.

Kiss why i also raised this topic was i had A87652--9843--x-xx awaiting any reply other than 2n/t--if 2d by pard i bid 2 spades

is Garbage stayman part of Sayc ----------no regards

[Old York]

pirate22, on Jan 13 2010, 10:45 AM, said:

Now im getting more and more confused----my subject was aimed at sayc or sayc2/1----reference acol never heard 1n/t  2c  2n/t was max with both majors.

Kiss   why i also raised this topic was i had A87652--9843--x-xx awaiting any reply other than 2n/t--if 2d by pard i bid 2 spades

is Garbage stayman part of Sayc ----------no                 regards

You were perfectly correct to bid 2♣, and you partner's inscrutable 2NT reply seems reckless. Many would bid 2♥ transfer with your hand.
You seem to have no alternative to showing your long spades over 2NT and hoping that partner is showing maximum support for both majors. It is possible that 4♠/♥ is making if partner has the perfect hand

In a similar vein, what does 2NT-3♥(tfr)-3NT imply?
I missed a good Diamond slam after this sequence, and I only had 7hcp with 5/5 ♠/♦

Tony

[Codo]

Old York, on Jan 11 2010, 02:15 AM, said:

Quote "You continue with transfers. "

I have seen the bid made many times showing both majors, but not showing a maximum. Perhaps this is the problem.
1NT-2♣-2NT-3♠(trf)-4♥ going 1 down was bad when opener was minimum

Tony

Interessting way to play transfer with 3 ♠ tzo show hearts.

But there is a remarkable solution: YOu can use Diamonds to show hearts. In this case you can stop in 3 Heart when both are minimum. Amazing, isn't it?

Even more common is to use twostep transfers with 3 clubs showing hearts. But this must be rocket science for some, so I won't go into details.