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The opponents are in a 2/1 auction and you hear
Rho you Lho Pard
1S P 2C X
What type of hand do you expect your partner to have ?What is the minimum distribution pard can have?
What is the difference between the above and 2nt by pard?
Does pards hand type change if he is a passed hand?
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Do you and your partner have an agreement??
#1
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Posted 2003-March-01, 16:36
This game never ceases to intrigue me!!
#2
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Posted 2003-March-01, 17:53
Quote
The opponents are in a 2/1 auction and you hear
Rho you Lho Pard
1S P 2C X
What type of hand do you expect your partner to have ?
well a hand with some red cards 4-4 looks like a very minimum and i would say 13+HP but it's a very dangerous auction considering that opps are known to have 23+ HP at least
What is the minimum distribution pard can have?
4-4 if possible if "green" but well i would be terrify to have that if red...
What is the difference between the above and 2nt by pard?
double is more balanced than 2nt , i think i would have a 5-5 in red colours there.
Does pards hand type change if he is a passed hand?
again it's question of style i would be terrified red to double in that case with 4-4 and less than 13 HP ... so it's nearly an auction that didn't exist for me and i think after a passed hand my hand will be more like 5-4. for 2nt i don't think that change anything i may have a weaker hand in term of points but stronger in shape .
i again probably say stupid things
Inquiry will eb probably kind enough to tell about his thougth in that auction i'll be very interested abotu that
regards
syl
Rho you Lho Pard
1S P 2C X
What type of hand do you expect your partner to have ?
well a hand with some red cards 4-4 looks like a very minimum and i would say 13+HP but it's a very dangerous auction considering that opps are known to have 23+ HP at least
What is the minimum distribution pard can have?
4-4 if possible if "green" but well i would be terrify to have that if red...
What is the difference between the above and 2nt by pard?
double is more balanced than 2nt , i think i would have a 5-5 in red colours there.
Does pards hand type change if he is a passed hand?
again it's question of style i would be terrified red to double in that case with 4-4 and less than 13 HP ... so it's nearly an auction that didn't exist for me and i think after a passed hand my hand will be more like 5-4. for 2nt i don't think that change anything i may have a weaker hand in term of points but stronger in shape .
i again probably say stupid things
Inquiry will eb probably kind enough to tell about his thougth in that auction i'll be very interested abotu that regards
syl
#3
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Posted 2003-March-01, 18:23
In Key Lime Precision, this bidding sequence a direct 2NT overcall of two suits have very specific overtones. A X shows a 5-4 type hand that is void/singleton in the major, while a 2NT overcall shows at least a 5-4 with some defensive values in the major.
"Champions aren't made in gyms, champions are made from something they have deep inside them - a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill. " - M. Ali
#4
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Posted 2003-March-02, 02:23
I use x vs. 2nt here to differentiate between strength and shape.
The doubling hand is better than an opening (16+), decent defensive values and could be relaively shape-free, guaranteeing the other major (4 cards) and tolerance for the other unbid suit (read 3 pieces).
A 2nt bid can be very weak if vulnerability is favorable... but likely is no worse than 5-5 in the unbids (a 1nt takeout bid instead requires less shape-- 5-4 acceptable at the one level).
The doubling hand is better than an opening (16+), decent defensive values and could be relaively shape-free, guaranteeing the other major (4 cards) and tolerance for the other unbid suit (read 3 pieces).
A 2nt bid can be very weak if vulnerability is favorable... but likely is no worse than 5-5 in the unbids (a 1nt takeout bid instead requires less shape-- 5-4 acceptable at the one level).
#5
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Posted 2003-March-02, 02:45
I posted too fast... meant to mention that as a rule I try to stay out of the bidding when opps have bid 2/1 unless I am very comfortable that my hand has enough offensively to cover partner's presumed weakness once a fit is found... Since the opponents have the majority of the points it is best to often pass and then double later. So, when I do X in this situation it is with a very good hand...
I am more likely to bid 2nt with a lot of shape and a weak hand than make a double because I know partner doesnt have a lot probably (sometimes he does because the 2/1 bidder has a lot of shape and not a lot of points... but this is relatively rare).
This does bring up an interesting point tho... A lot of players tend to pass in 2d seat after an opening bid with some relatively strong hands... This puts their partner, in 4th seat, in an awkward position holding the unbid suits and some relatively strong hands. The bidding is now at the 2 (or 3 level if they are playing inverted minors) and the 4th seat bidder has no way to take an intelligent action.. Does partner have strength that is undisclosed? Or does original opener have a monster, in which case taking an action can result in a double and a huge loss? It is for this reason that I prefer partners not trap pass with some strength in 2d seat and make takeout doubles wherever possible. I find it just puts too much pressure on 4th seat bidder.
I am more likely to bid 2nt with a lot of shape and a weak hand than make a double because I know partner doesnt have a lot probably (sometimes he does because the 2/1 bidder has a lot of shape and not a lot of points... but this is relatively rare).
This does bring up an interesting point tho... A lot of players tend to pass in 2d seat after an opening bid with some relatively strong hands... This puts their partner, in 4th seat, in an awkward position holding the unbid suits and some relatively strong hands. The bidding is now at the 2 (or 3 level if they are playing inverted minors) and the 4th seat bidder has no way to take an intelligent action.. Does partner have strength that is undisclosed? Or does original opener have a monster, in which case taking an action can result in a double and a huge loss? It is for this reason that I prefer partners not trap pass with some strength in 2d seat and make takeout doubles wherever possible. I find it just puts too much pressure on 4th seat bidder.
#6
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Posted 2003-March-02, 11:15
Auction
1S - (P) - 2C - (?)
Where 2C is 2/1 game forcing bid. The question is what is double and what is 2NT. I think this did not go far enough. You should also ask what is 2S and 3C. Second, partner's bid does not change whether or not he is a passed hand.
First, the concept that double shows strength and 2NT shows weakness (both showing length in red suits) is wrong, imho. The more you have, the less partner can have, and no matter how much you have in hcp, your partner may have absolutely no hcp. That is, if you have 6 hcp, you can not think therefore your partner must have some. Both opponents are unlimited, maybe 6 is all you have.
But other posters are right. This is not exactly the auction you want to butt in every time. Why would you want to bid in this situation?
1) To suggest a possible sacrifice
2) To suggest a lead
3) To get your opponents out of a comfortable, care-free auction
That is it. You are really not going to outbid them, nor talk them out of their game. If you are RED, I am pretty sure you are not going to be suggesting a sacrifice too often. If they are red and you are white, well, then you are much more likely to be suggesting a sacrifice. Of course anytime you bid, you address item number 3.
Here is how I play the bids.
DBL --> emphasis on hearts with a tolerance for diamonds. I have been know to hold 6hearts and 3diamonds, but expect at least 4 diamonds. I will pretty much always have five hearts, and if I bid 2H instead of doubling, I am not encouraging partner to bid with diamonds. The double gives us two suits to find at the two level, and if partner is even in them, he knows which I prefer.
2NT/3NT/4NT --> big two red two suiters. While 5-5 is possible, I think better distributions usually exist. 3NT/4NT suggest less defense and more offensive hands than 2NT. Think something like S-A HQT9xx D-KJxxxx C-x for 3NT, with the spade ACE for 4NT. And 2NT suggest, all things equal, if partner ends up on the lead, I would prefer a diamond lead (if I preferred a heart I would have doubled).
If I am going to force to the three level by bidding 2NT, I can do so with 2S and 3C as well. I already said that 2NT shows stronger diamonds than hearts (for lead purposes at least, because I did not double). So 2S and 3C should still show hands with red two suits. 2S I use to show powerful two suiter, with good hearts (too good for dbl, maybe offensively). I use three clubs as a hand with lots of diamonds and a tolerance for hearts (think somewhat similar to the double but this time showing a for diamonds and no “fear” of the three level). The 3C bid is just like a 3D preemptive jump overcall, but like the 2H overcall which expressed little tolerance for diamonds, a direct 3D shows little or no tolerance for hearts.
Do you have to play this stuff? Of course not. But if you don't have some kind of rules like this, it will be very difficult to bid on this auction. I have had partners simply say "we don't bid after their 2/1 response." I likd go mix it up with them where I have a goal (to get the lead I want, to suggest a sacrafice, to get them out of there comfort zone). So what ever you play double as, also consider what both cue-bids are. You simply will not hold enough to use them as forcing strong hands.
1S - (P) - 2C - (?)
Where 2C is 2/1 game forcing bid. The question is what is double and what is 2NT. I think this did not go far enough. You should also ask what is 2S and 3C. Second, partner's bid does not change whether or not he is a passed hand.
First, the concept that double shows strength and 2NT shows weakness (both showing length in red suits) is wrong, imho. The more you have, the less partner can have, and no matter how much you have in hcp, your partner may have absolutely no hcp. That is, if you have 6 hcp, you can not think therefore your partner must have some. Both opponents are unlimited, maybe 6 is all you have.
But other posters are right. This is not exactly the auction you want to butt in every time. Why would you want to bid in this situation?
1) To suggest a possible sacrifice
2) To suggest a lead
3) To get your opponents out of a comfortable, care-free auction
That is it. You are really not going to outbid them, nor talk them out of their game. If you are RED, I am pretty sure you are not going to be suggesting a sacrifice too often. If they are red and you are white, well, then you are much more likely to be suggesting a sacrifice. Of course anytime you bid, you address item number 3.
Here is how I play the bids.
DBL --> emphasis on hearts with a tolerance for diamonds. I have been know to hold 6hearts and 3diamonds, but expect at least 4 diamonds. I will pretty much always have five hearts, and if I bid 2H instead of doubling, I am not encouraging partner to bid with diamonds. The double gives us two suits to find at the two level, and if partner is even in them, he knows which I prefer.
2NT/3NT/4NT --> big two red two suiters. While 5-5 is possible, I think better distributions usually exist. 3NT/4NT suggest less defense and more offensive hands than 2NT. Think something like S-A HQT9xx D-KJxxxx C-x for 3NT, with the spade ACE for 4NT. And 2NT suggest, all things equal, if partner ends up on the lead, I would prefer a diamond lead (if I preferred a heart I would have doubled).
If I am going to force to the three level by bidding 2NT, I can do so with 2S and 3C as well. I already said that 2NT shows stronger diamonds than hearts (for lead purposes at least, because I did not double). So 2S and 3C should still show hands with red two suits. 2S I use to show powerful two suiter, with good hearts (too good for dbl, maybe offensively). I use three clubs as a hand with lots of diamonds and a tolerance for hearts (think somewhat similar to the double but this time showing a for diamonds and no “fear” of the three level). The 3C bid is just like a 3D preemptive jump overcall, but like the 2H overcall which expressed little tolerance for diamonds, a direct 3D shows little or no tolerance for hearts.
Do you have to play this stuff? Of course not. But if you don't have some kind of rules like this, it will be very difficult to bid on this auction. I have had partners simply say "we don't bid after their 2/1 response." I likd go mix it up with them where I have a goal (to get the lead I want, to suggest a sacrafice, to get them out of there comfort zone). So what ever you play double as, also consider what both cue-bids are. You simply will not hold enough to use them as forcing strong hands.
--Ben--
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