[bglover]

You hold the following hand:

AQ8xx
AKx
x
AKJx

1. What do you open? (Actually the crucial question).

2. Assume you open 2C and receive a positive response from partner-- 2C-2D (positive)-2S-3h (promises 5). What now?

For the second question, you are aware that a positive response does not require much more than a working king, so this may affect your 3d bid.

[inquiry]

Quote

You hold the following hand:

AQ8xx
AKx
x
AKJx

1. What do you open? (Actually the crucial question).

2. Assume you open 2C and receive a positive response from partner-- 2C-2D (positive)-2S-3h (promises 5). What now?

For the second question, you are aware that a positive response does not require much more than a working king, so this may affect your 3d bid.

Steve meant 3rd bid not 3d (3Diamond) bid. Here are my answers and why.

    1.      2C  (this hand is strong enough)
    2.      2S  (this is my suit)
    3.      4C  (see reason below)

First, let me explain how I bid this with my regular partners. I open 2Cs and if partner bids 2D, it is just as Steve said, a likely trick or more (a 2H bid would be a supernegative, but I would call 2D as semipositive or better rather than positive).

Over 2D, the way I play normally, the auction would be forced to 3H or 3S at a minimum, and if opener bids anything other than 2H or 2S over 2D, it is game force (yes even 2NT, but I dont play that as balanced, if I am balanced I have a really big hand, and would bid 3NT or 4NT). So how does responder differentiate between semi-positives and true positives? Remember I said I do not play openers 2NT as balanced? Well, then with a weak hand (semi-positive), responder can rebid 2NT as a warning (I have a semi-positive hand, think about one trick, maybe a king or two queens or so). The bidding will tread softly after that, usually ending in 3 of a major unless opener has 9 fairly sure tricks (still forced to that level after 2D response). So, the way I play with regular partners, the 3H bid shows a true positive response.

Facing any kind of true minimum positive response with hearts
   (A)      S-xx H-QJxxx D-xxxx C-Kxx (of course no CK this time, think CQ and SJ or DJ)
   (      S-xx H-QJxxx D-Kxxx Cxxx
   ©      S-Kx  H-QJxxx D-xxxx C-xxx

you want to help your partner evaluate his hand as to rather to continue to slam or stop safely in game. The way to do this is to bid out my DISTRIBUTION so partner will know (not guess) what to do. I do this by bidding 4C. Now when I support Hearts, partner will know that I have shortness in diamonds (remember, I dont have a balanced hand to begin with when I open 2C with regular partners unless it is a monster hand 25+). Even playing with someone who does not play invitational 2D (to include the balanced hand most people open 2C and rebid 2NT) and dont play responders 2NT as a seminegative warning, this 4C bid followed by heart raise also shows a short diamond, obviously.

So on hand A we will reach 4, 5 or 6H, the bidding will go 2C-2D-2S-3H-4C-5C-5H-? or 2C-2D-2S-3H-4C-4D-4H-5C-5H-?  or 2C-2D-2S-3H-4C-4D-4H-Pass

On hand B, we will reach 4H. The bidding will be 2C-2D-2S-3H-4C-4D-4H-P

On hand C, we will reach 6H, the bidding will be 2C-2D-2S-3H-4C-4S-5H-6H-P

Now, what kind of disasters might occur if you bid 4C on this hand? The only real problem is if partner has half his values in diamonds (say similar to hand B above) and bids 4S instead of showing his diamond values. Diamond values in your partners hand, of course, is not what you want to hear about, but fortunately, when you bid 4C, partner has space to show those below 4H (or 4S) for that matter (remember we are game forced, so partner will not worry about bidding 4D). With 3Cs to the KING (hand A above) and nothing in Ds responder can even temporize by bidding 4D to allow maximum flexibility to find the correct strain. It would be thoughtless of responder to immediately raise spades here with hand B or A over 4C.

Now, what if my minors were reversed (give me S-AQ8xx H-AKx D-AKJx C-x), do I bid 4D over 3Hs? The answer is no.Here I would simply raise 3H to 4H. The reason for this difference is clear. With 4D and singleton C, partner with (what will turn out is wasted) value in clubs an no real fit for my suits maybe forced to bypass the last makable spot of 4H. This is a common theme in my post here in the BBO (remember that jjsb?). Try to learn not to make bids in the vacuum of your own hand and bidding problem, but consider your partners problems before you bid. A direct 4H bid on the hand as Steve showed it does not allow responder to make an educated guess as to rather to continue or not on some minimum type hands where slam would be laydown. In addition, 4C is safe bid because if your partner is thinking about you, he will not bid beyond 4Hs. While a 4D bid on the second hand I gave (at the start of this paragraph) gives partner an insolvable problem on too many hands, especially where he has "wasted values" in clubs. In the first case, 4C is safe, as partner has time to bid his values without risk, the second case 4D is dangerous because partner with wasted club values will not know that they are wasted.

So I would say a partner who held, say, S-xx H-QJT98 D-QTxx C-xx would, (thinking about openers problem) would rebid 4D 100% of the time and you would arrive at, oh, I say a safe 4H contract 100% of the time (of course, my regular partners would have bid 2NT with this hand. The bidding would have then been 2C-2D-2S-2NT(semipositive)-3C(forcing)-3H-4H.

I guess the hand Steve will eventually show for responder, by the way, is an excellent example for why 2NT as a warning of holding the semi-positive type of hand is a very good weapon to add to your bidding repertoire.

[easy]

Quote

You hold the following hand:

AQ8xx
AKx
x
AKJx

1. What do you open? (Actually the crucial question).

2. Assume you open 2C and receive a positive response from partner-- 2C-2D (positive)-2S-3h (promises 5). What now?

For the second question, you are aware that a positive response does not require much more than a working king, so this may affect your 3d bid.

I would open 1s. when i have good dist. hands i like to start as low as possible.

If i have opened 2c i would rebid 2s.

Over 3h i bid 4h. Since i have already overbid the hand with an opening of 2C im going to slow the auction down a tad. If slam is in the offering pard should be able to find some noise over 4H.

[bglover]

OK, Fred, I agree 100% there (if you havent guessed already Ben was my partner and we had no prior discussion of his methods after 2c, just the 2h supernegative agreement).

Now, over 3H he actually bid 4C as mentioned and I rebid 4S and we ended up at the five level where 11 trix was not available (many ways to an ez 10).

The moral of this story is (there are actually 2):

1. Don't assume your partner is playing the same treatment as you if you plan on doing something non-mainstream (I believe the 2C bid was a slight overbid on the given hand and the 8.5 trick requirement).

2. If you choose to make an opening aggressive bid, realize you can get too high too fast (in other words, slow down once you start fast, warning your partner you were aggressive to start).

[inquiry]

Well, I disagree with the 1S opening bid with this hand.  1 Spade opening bid with this hand at imps, especially vul is risky. You will surely miss a laydown game opposite as little as:

S-xx H-xxxxxx D-xxx C-Qx (win 5H, 4C, 1S and at least 1D ruff, heck if hearts are 2-2 you make six).

And even a possible slam opposite

S-xx H-Qxxxx D-xxx C-Qxx, where you might easy score 4C+5H+1Druff and 2S (if hook is on).

In both cases, you will play in 1S if you open that.

Now as for the show a "minimum" hand having choosen to open 2C and hearing partners "positive" response and 3H bid. You both want a 4H bid to show a "minimum" opening 2C. All I can say is not me. I already know partner has five hearts (or more) to the Queen for his 3H bid. All he need for no less than a 50% slam is the club Queen (That is 4C, expected 5H, 1S and at least 1D ruff... so, it is on a Spade hook). There is no way for partner to evaluate his hand if you don't describe your holding. And again, a 4C bid is 100% safe.

What can partner have? If he has an undisclosed spade fit, he has a good hand (he would raise when weak rather than bid 3H). If he has long hearts he will rebid them. If he has diamond cards or is uncertain what strain the play the contract in, he will bid 4D. If he has good clubs (say king fourth) he will raise and we will get to 6C. It seems a no-brainer to me.

The real question might be, how can NS get into trouble after the four club rebid? And agsinst this very low (I would think non-existent) chance to get into trouble with a 4C bid, think of how you help responder evaluate his hand when you do raise hearts, say over 4D, or the excellent 6C contract you reach with a heart-club, and spade ruffs in partners hand.

[bglover]

I have a short answer to that... If partner has cards he is not passing 4hts and if he doesn't he is absent the 2nt rebid showing weakness in the system.

Since we had no prior agreement that this bid was in play then you should not expect me to be using it.... thus, you have to bid 4hts and not risk forcing the 5 level... In other words, to repeat what I said... If you choose to open agressively don't keep being aggressive.. partner knows he doesnt need much to move towards slam once you open 2c... trust him.

[bglover]

Oh. one more thing... 4C clearly sounds like a second suit and a dislike of hearts... searching for 2-5-2-4 in partner's hand..

[inquiry]

Well... of course 4-Clubs sounds like a second suit. It was a second suit. But does it deny hearts? I think not. If opener had spades, clubs and something in diamonds, he would not necessarily bid past 3NT. Responder, especially weak with stuff in diamonds, must realize that opener may have at least partial support for hearts.

So opener is either two suited (no heart fit) or has a secondary heart fit (no 3NT bid over 3NT). But stop for a minute. If you are going to play in a 5-2 fit (spades or hearts), when opener is short in diamonds. Which one would be better, spades (openers long suit) or hearts (your long suit). Also, if opener lacks a significant heart fit, what good would your hand have been in spades. Not much indeed. But it is clearly worth 3 tricks in hearts, four opposite any doubleton honor.

At the table, I let you question the intellegence of my 4Club bid without comment. When you posted the hand here, and ask what anyone would do, well, I took that as my opportunity to espouse my view which I withheld earlier.

To follow my view, you only have to understand why:

S- AQxxx         I bid 4C with this hand
H- AKx
D- x
C -AKJx

and

S - AQxxx       I bid 4H with this hand.
H - AKx
D - AKJx
C - x

Both these bids,  I made realizing that my partner did not play 2NT as the warning of a semi-positive hand. Having expressed my views, I leave it for everyone to decide for themselves how best to bid this hand. I will point out that while we got too high, the vast majority of people got no higher than 1S or 2S.

[bglover]

Well, 1S or 2S scores higher than 5hts down 1 so that point is moot.

Look, my original post was what would you open this hand? I don't open it 2C, for several reasons.. it's wrong on strength, it is 2 suited in nature and your primary suit isn't very good. Three flaws playing with a partner that you know answers positive on extremely weak hands is at least two flaws too many.

But (BIG BUT) if you are going to open that hand aggressively, don't continue being aggressive. Simple logic should show you that (the fact that you can construct a few hands where slam can make doesn't justify a continuation of slam investigation on your own..I'm sorry it just does not!).

The fact that you can't see that I find a tad shocking but it's ok. I do not.. repeat DO NOT fault your original bid.. the fact that I would not have done it does not mean that it is wrong... But, your continuation of an aggressive auction is the problem...You dislcosed your strength (and even you must admit that you are extremely thin for the 2C bid)... The fact of the matter is that, absent a magic holding by partner (you need SEVERAL specific cards on the hands you used to justify your bid), slam is not going to be likely versus many of the very minimal holdings I can have... If you are going to open aggressively with a player that you know responds aggressively, give some of the control over to him... Sorry if you disagree, but, frankly. you should not.

[inquiry]

Wtih  

S - xx
H - QJT98
D - QTxx
C - xx

I would never consider bidding 4S freely over 4C on this auction.

2C-P-2D-P
2S-P-3H-P
4C-P-?   <------- Never, ever, and to quote you, "The fact that you can't see that I find a tad shocking".  And I also find your view that my hand opposite known heart fit is a minimum (when i opened, yes, when you bid 3H, no) equally astonishing. Also, 4C bid, while investigating a slam certainly wasn't entirely on my own, I had every reason to EXPECT my partner would make an appropriate descriptive bid. If YOU had bid correctly and said 4D with half you values in diamonds, we would reach 4H while making the save slam try. How moot is it to get to 4H instead of 1S or 5Hs?

As for if slam was right my partner would find it if I simply bid 4H over 3H. Certainly not, reverse you minors (giving you four clubs to QT instead of 4 diamonds) and where would you want to play?  How could you find the excellent double fit if my hand doesn't bid 4Cs?

Once again, I am willing to allow the readers of this thread to decide the bidding style they like. It is obvious we are not going to agree, and I have no problem with that.  Likewise,  I suspect that many, maybe most, players will agree with you. This also  doesn't bother me at all. My bidding is often not the popular choice, but at least I am willing to explain why I bid (have you ever explained your choice of 4Ss? No). Our potential excellent result was as much if not more your fault for bidding a silly 4S instead of a descriptive 4D. If you had bid 4D and I then bid 4H, the auction would have ended just fine.

I learned two things. If we play again, I will not make any clever bids with you, I will leap to game, signoff, use Prinicple of fast arrival even on hand where I know it is not the right descriptive bid. And I am more than willing than allow good players read my views and those who agree with me or at least understand my views seek me out as a partner in the BBO.

[bglover]

Well, playing with me using a straightforward style without prior discussion is not only advisable but expected... that's fine with me totally.

Now, the reason I did not explain my 4S bid was because I thought it was entirely obvious... I had 2 clubs and 2 spades and so I returned to your first bid suit... I certainly had no reason to believe you had 3 hearts in your hand at that point and I wasn't going to rebid my five card suit when you are presumably 6-5 or 5-5 (or at worst 5242) and let u play it in clubs... That's kind of the point... By not supporting hearts how the heck am I supposed to know you have 3 without signing off at the five level? And. since you had a hand that wasn't suitable for the five level on a possible minimum WHY DID YOU NOT JUST RAISE HEARTS??

You are entirely correct.. we are never going to agree.. that's why I would love to hear from some other people on this..

Given that we play agressive responses to 2C openings (certainly you and I are 2 of the very few players that would make a positive response on that hand) and given that there was no prior agreement that a 2n rebid over 2s shows weakness (which I readily admit would have prevented this from happening), how would others bid the opener's hand?

I would be curious how many would 1. not bid 4S over 4C (the only sensible bid I see) and 2. How many would bid 4C in the 1st place given the fact that we play aggressive positive responses.

[easy]

i'm not sure i understand the logic of bidding 4d. Are u suggesting 4d be bid as a place to play? or showing where ones values are? If you r suggesting that QTxx should be treated as a place with values i cant say that i agree. I would expect a control (and a better hand) if my pard were to bid 4d.  When my partner opens 2c and rebids a suit i tend to expect that to be a 6 card suit. I realize that is certainly not always the case but usually. I know you and steve are proponents of the semi-positive response of 2d but personally had i had his hand i too would have bid 4s.(but then i would have responded 2h the first time.i just cant fathom that 2h supernegative u guys play) 4D sounds a lot stronger than the hand i saw.In the case of misfits i like to bail out as quickly as possible

I must admit when i first glanced at the hand i considered bidding 4c over 3h to show my shortness but then decided enough was enough. As i would'nt have opened it 2c to begin with. Frankly that distribution is much easier to describe when playin a big club. But im wandering

[dageaux]

i think i got lost. did the bidding go:
2C - 2D
2S - 3H ??

if this is the case, i'd probably bid 4H (although 4C isn't a **bad** bid). 4H has the virtue of showing a minimum 2C opening. it also puts the ball in partner's court, always a good thing  (that was tongue in cheek, kinda)

[keylime]

I get bad vibes about opening this hand 2C to begin with...1S for me followed by a jump to set the G/F.

A strong 2C opening doesn't handle two suiters well because you lose an essential level of bidding needed to depict the hand.

[redguard2]

2C - 2D -
2S - 3H -
?

Well, If you have a fixed P and he (or she) understand you as  you know yourself, you can bid anything you like instead 4C.

or else, you can bid 4C, show you suit and then bid 5H
Also a show of your courage to OPPs

"you are aware that a positive response does not require much more than a working king"
Seems not a good way.