[bglover]

I have played 2h as a supernegative for about 10 years now with my regular partners and it has served us extremely well.

The other day I was playing on BBO with an occasional partner and we had another good result with it, although one of the opponents (also an occasional partner) did not like the bid of 2h supernegative. At our table the bidding went 2c-2h-2s ppp. I had 2 spades, 2443 shape and 2 jacks and we made exactly 8 as advertised (most of the field was in 3 going down, where partner opened 1s and let opps into the bidding, and he had to show his good hand by rebidding 3).

Anyway, I was recounting this hand to a so-called expert and he told me that the 2h bidder was always forced to take another call to protect partner in case he held a 2 suiter. To me this seemed foolish, as the whole purpose to the 2h bid is to prepare partner for the possibility of an early bailout. (Now, to clarify my own methods, I will give a positive response on almost anything more than a working king, so when I bid 2 hearts I have a really really bad hand).

The so-called expert gave me his reasons (and they weren't terrible reasons at all but didn't persuade me) then said that 1000% (sic) of all experts would agree with him so I did a survey (on the net and amongst good players I know) and found that 50% of all experts agreed with him and 50% agree with me (which is actually about what i expected).

Obviously there is not nearly 100% agreement on this subject, but I would like to hear from people that use the 2h bid and how they treat it and why.

[keylime]

I've never seen the logic of playing 2H as a negative over 2C - you've sacrificed a major suit in order to get partner to bid something. In essence, you're not allowing partner to bid their hand at the lowest possible level, and you risk wrongsiding the contract with the strong hand on the table (shudders at that very thought).

One should always strive to protect the strong hand at all costs since you want to gain declarer's advantage from the opening lead coming into the hand.

[inquiry]

I use both 2HEARTS and 2SPADES as "supernegative". 2H shows 0 tricks for a heart contract. 2S shows 0 tricks for a Spade contract and by inference, a single trick for heart contract.

Over 2C-p-2H-p-2S I almost always pass unless I have a surpise trick (read Spade fit). I open typical ACOL 2H or 2S bids (eight tricks, self-supporting suit) with 2C. Over 2H if I want to force to game,  I have to bid at the three level (not 2S). I open acol 2 bids in a minor with multi 2D... so that if I bid 3C over 2H (or 2S) it is better than a typical acol bid and is game force.

[bglover]

Well Dwayne. occasionally I have played 2hearts with my horror and the good hand exposed... but invariably it has been the best spot for the contract as partner knows not to expect one trick from me.... It's a small trade off given that other methods are going to force us to the 3 level....

[keylime]

Whenever I play SAYC or 2/1 (which is rare), I bid 2D and if I'm broke and pard bids 2H/S/NT, I'm outta there - no need to bid "cheapest minor" when you got fit and no values.

I just am leery of putting a good hand on the table unless it happens to be a diamond hand - then you can't avoid it.

[bglover]

Well thats anti- system.. you are forced to bid again without a prior agrement that there is a drop dead bid available..that's the whole reason for the 2 heart supernegative bid in the 1st place.

If you whimsically pass everytime you have a bad hand then partner isn't going to like it very much when he is holding a 10 tricker and is exploring which of his 2 suits is better to play in.

Since you can just pass whenver you deem your hand is bad enough partner will never know what to do... your method I do not like a bit... at least the 2h bid warns partner my next bid may well be pass so if he wants to bid game he better do it himself quickly.

[easy]

Ok here is a question for all of u players that feel a 2h (double negative) bid over 2c allows u to pass partners subsequent 2 level suit bid.

When the 2c opener has a 2/3 suited game force what do they do.
For instance

AKQx Akxx AKQx  x

or  AKJ AKQxx  x AKxx

in both hand you have the potential for game or slam opposite 4/5 small in any of your 3 suits.

It would seem to me that the system has to have some mechanism to allow for the above hands. I've never seen anything written about the 2h double negative but to me it just makes sense that a new suit by the 2c bid creates a force. But im willing to hear from those that play this stlye how they handle the above. Maybe if i see some cogent arguemnents in favor of said treatment ill even convert to it myself

[bglover]

I will try to address both replies best i can... First off. 2h is not a sign off bid... the bidding can still be forced by opener with a jump (3s or 4 of minor) but it does mean you lose a level. However, when opener has bid 2c on a hand that already has game in it he will still have the chance to bid it.

On the other hand, how many 10 trick, 2 or 3 suited hands have you ever held (the example easy gave) where you dont have a stopper to try 3n? It's rare but can happen I grant you.

Now, how many 2c hands have you held that could never make 4 of a major opposite a complete bust? Many more than 9 or 10 trick hands that you could gamble 3n on opposite a complete bust... that's the logic to the bid. The 2c bid does not guarantee game in any case... it assumes a modicum of help from partner and alerts partner to the possibility of slam opposite a moderate hand... it is not the old days of bridge where a strong 2 bid was 100% forcing to game. The 3 of a minor second negative has been around for a long time now in deference to the understanding that 8.5 trick opening doesn't always produce game.

If you accept that the second negative bid of 3 minor allows partnerships to stop short of game (and that is almost universally accepted these days) than the 2h bid simply saves a level... instead of 3 of a major -1 you can play 2 of a major making for a good score.

Like any other convention it does have its drawbacks... and it certainly requires the bust hand responder use EXCELLENT judgment once opener reveals his suit whether or not game is still in the cards... But, and I stress this...saving a level with a bust hand often times results in clear tops and rarely, if ever results in a poor score. If a poor score does result. it's because someone misjudged the quality of his assets (because remember, the 2h bid does not say im passing your next bid, just that I responder have very little help).

[bglover]

Actually Ron, I don't think I know one pair that doesn't have a way of stopping short of game after a 2c opening these days. So, therefore, you and I are on completely different wavelengths here.

With refinements in bidding has come the understanding that not all 2c (or acol strong 2 hands) will always produce games and methods have existed a long time now to allow partnerships to stop in game. If you play 2c always forcing to game except after a 2n rebid, this discussion actually has no relevance to you and that is fine, but then I hope you never open a strong 2 without game completely in hand... that's a rarity but thats ok those hands do exist.

I have actually reached slam on hands where responder has started with a 2h bid... as i said opener jumps to absolutely force game... you do lose a level for investigating... thats the tradeoff. So, on the example hand you gave, the bidding could go 2c-2h-3s-4c by the 2h bidder (partner i have a passel of clubs contained in my garbage and no spds since if I had even 2 I'd bid 4 spds instead).

[keylime]

If you got a 10 trick hand then partner owes it to you to make some sort of jump bid to demand either a cuebid or a simple game conversion. Also, to spin this thread along, you'll be surprised how many different hand types are opened 2C these days (playing SAYC, 2/1, ACOL, etc. of course) - frankly at times it's really the WORSE bid to make.

On three suited hands that are strong - unless you got a hand that's 3-4 losers, it shouldn't be opened 2C -- you've lost a great deal of room showing strength but at the cost of a constructive dialogue with your partner. What happens if they actually have values and/or cover cards? You can reverse easily to show these shape hands.

Like I said earlier, I dread placing the strong hand on the table at anytime. Furthermore, if partner makes a simple rebid of 2H/S after my waiting bid, denying an immediate G/F, I have no quarrels leaving them right there if I have nothing. 2C is a ONE ROUND FORCE - partner's responsibility is to accurately portrait their hand type at their rebid.

[inquiry]

Quote

Ok here is a question for all of u players that feel a 2h (double negative) bid over 2c allows u to pass partners subsequent 2 level suit bid.

When the 2c opener has a 2/3 suited game force what do they do.
For instance

AKQx Akxx AKQx  x

or  AKJ AKQxx  x AKxx

in both hand you have the potential for game or slam opposite 4/5 small in any of your 3 suits.

It would seem to me that the system has to have some mechanism to allow for the above hands. I've never seen anything written about the 2h double negative but to me it just makes sense that a new suit by the 2c bid creates a force. But im willing to hear from those that play this stlye how they handle the above. Maybe if i see some cogent arguemnents in favor of said treatment ill even convert to it myself

Hi Easy. I am not sure anyone is going to change your mind. But I think if you play Multi-2Diamonds, you might be might find 2H as supernegative (or both 2H and 2S as I play) works ok. For instance, with 2D being a weak two in a major, or a balanced big hand (so no need for 2C-2D-2NT in a natural sense) you may find such hands not a problem.

Rather than try to explain this, I recommend that you take a look at Chris Ryall's web page http://www.cavendish...e/two/clubs.htm
describing his two club system (which is very close to how i play it with my favorite partners). With your first hand (honest three suiter), over 2H/2S (supernegatives), I would bid 2NT...btw, over 2D I would also bid 2NT (game force 3 suiter over 2D, can end up at three level over 2H/2S).

With your second hand, over 2H (supernegative) you have two choices. You could pass since your partner has no tricks for a heart contract. Think at most a minor suit Q. If you think the hand is game force, you can bid 3H (which over 2H is game force, with question about strain...since you didn;t bid 4H). Of course, if your partner bids 2S over 2C (showing 1 trick for a heart contract), you can simply bid 4H.

And if you don;t play multi-2D, you might look at Dr. Rydall's description of his multi-2D auctions, just for fun.

[easy]

Quote

Hi Easy. I am not sure anyone is going to change your mind. But I think if you play Multi-2Diamonds, you might be might find 2H as supernegative (or both 2H and 2S as I play) works ok. For instance, with 2D being a weak two in a major, or a balanced big hand (so no need for 2C-2D-2NT in a natural sense) you may find such hands not a problem.

Rather than try to explain this, I recommend that you take a look at Chris Ryall's web page http://www.cavendish...e/two/clubs.htm
describing his two club system (which is very close to how i play it with my favorite partners). With your first hand (honest three suiter), over 2H/2S (supernegatives), I would bid 2NT...btw, over 2D I would also bid 2NT (game force 3 suiter over 2D, can end up at three level over 2H/2S).

With your second hand, over 2H (supernegative) you have two choices. You could pass since your partner has no tricks for a heart contract. Think at most a minor suit Q. If you think the hand is game force, you can bid 3H (which over 2H is game force, with question about strain...since you didn;t bid 4H). Of course, if your partner bids 2S over 2C (showing 1 trick for a heart contract), you can simply bid 4H.

And if you don;t play multi-2D, you might look at Dr. Rydall's description of his multi-2D auctions, just for fun.

i actually play multi but that doesnt really solve the problem of 2 suited game forcing hands.
Although pard may not have a fit in my first suit we may still make game in my other suit.


But lets forget about the above for a bit. Most players here in the States havent even heard of the multi2D bid therefore that treatment would not be available for them.

I was gearing my question toward those people that play std american style bridge where their only strong bid is 2C.

(btw what do you do systematically with a x neg. in both majors)

[bglover]

That brings up one important point that I meant to mention earlier. The 2c bid does not work well with true 2 suiters. I have stopped opening strong 6-5 or 5-5 hands 2c even if they meet the 8 1/2 trick requirement because they are just too hard to bid losing the extra level. The only time I will open such a hand 2c is if i already have game in hand and am prepared to rebid 4 of a major over partner's 2h response.

[inquiry]

This response is in response to Easys question of what do I play systemically to double negative in both majors?. Then I will address Wotan's comment about not being playable opposite a game forcing two suiter.

I play either 2H as super negative or both 2H and 2S, depending upon partner's preference. Playing both as negative, almost all hands begin with a 2D waiting bid (just like the rest of the 2/1 world). Exceptional bids are 2NT, 3-any suit, 3NT and 4-major. I play 2NT as showing an unknown six card headed by AKQ. I play 3NT as a solid 7 or 8 card suit. I play 3 of a suit as AJxxxx KJxxxx  AQxxxx or KQxxxx. I play 4h/4s as seven or eight cards, lacking both A of K

As to Wotan's comment that this is This structure is deeply flawed and virtually unplayable with a 2 suiter. It is also unnecessary - as stated in a previous post - as responder will bid with a 6 (5) count anyway, the 8 1/2 trick hand can be opened at the 1 level with little loss.

I disagree on two fronts. First off, any two suiter that is true game force is handled easily with this structure, since over the supernegative bid, a bid of a suit at the three level is game force (exception 2C-2S-3H... this 3H bid shows 8 tricks in opener's hand. Responder promised 1 trick for H when he bid 2S. If responder has super fit, or possible second trick, he bids 4H, otherwise he can pass). So the structure is not "flawed" against "Game forcing two suiters." A second advantage comes into play... when the response is 2D, it promises at least one trick for a major suit contract. This would be helpful with exactly the kind of hand you mention (8.5 trick hand). So say you open 1H with 8.5 tricks and a really good major. Your partner bids 2D... you expect he has at least one trick for you, so you can bid game. Yet partner maynot have enough to respond at all to a 1H opening bid. Change the hand, you open 2C and partner bids 2H. Now partner lacks even a trick, so with your 8.5 you simply pass. But since you have 8.5 tricks 2H is safe.

Now, what is the "problem" hand? Well Wotan is right, it is a two suiter.... that is so strong you want to open 2C but not strong enough to force to game. Here you have two options. You can open one of your best suit or open 2C and risk getting too high or in the wrong strain. I simply open my strong two suiters that require at least two tricks from partner in my best suit. Funny thing about two suited hands, if you are say 5-5 or 6-5 if you open someone almost always will keep the bidding alive. So I don't find this flaw so detrimental at all. Plus I can greatly limit my jumps in my own suit rebids if I open 1 of a major, since I can open 2C with 8 sure winners and at least something like 5 controls. I can do this BECAUSE of the supernegative responses.

[inquiry]

Wotan... Fine.. I too will drop this thread unless someone has a specific questoin for me. However, I do want to point out an error in your last post that others may not realize was wrong... you said The other problem hands are those with GF minor single suiters. You may find that these need to be shown at the 4 level, thus by passing thrunt. eg if 2C 2H 3C/D can be dropped.. . As I said a couple of times, even after a 2H supernegative, a bid of 3C or 3D (or 3H or 3S) are Game force, so there is no need to jump to 4 of a minor as you suggested.

[ruffij]

I don't particularly care for the 2H supernegative, because (a) it takes a major away from the strong opener; ( to show hearts, you must then bid 2N, which takes that away from the opener, which I think is even worse; and © the weak hand has no way of knowing if his/her meager assets are just the little bit opener needs for game or even slam.  One thing that does work is for the opener to jump over a 2d waiting/negative bid, to 3h/s or 4c/d, to show a hand that must be in at least game even opposite a total bust.  Such a bid is forcing.  If you play that a non-jump rebid after 2d is not forcing, then the responder can just pass that and stop in 2h/s or 3c/d with a total bust.