[microcap]

Rex and I have been unhappy with normal fourth suit forcing auctions. I think the problem is that FSF just has too many hand types to describe, and it is tough to distinguish between all of them as the auction progresses. I like the concept--it is the followups that are confusing.

Does anyone have a link/structure for FSF auctions that seems to improve the normal? Complexity is fine--Rex can explain it to me!

[Gerben42]

You might want to play FSF 100% GF. That does not cater for ALL hand types but enough to not matter much and makes it easier. In addition, the 4 sequences where 3 suits were bid on the 1-level may be different (if not artificial already )

[cherdano]

Have a look at XYZ for auctions starting with 1x-1y-1z. I am convinced it is a substantial improvement.
Han and I have been playing a structure where, after a minor suit opening and auctions such as 1D 1S 2C, we use the same principle: 2H is a puppet to 2S and either to play there, or any invite. 2S is artificial game force. This came out of discussions on this forum started by Phil and Han. I think searching for "New Suit invitational" or maybe "NSI" may lead to the threads.

[kenrexford]

IMO, one of the problems with FSF and the like are, as you mentioned, that there is so much to do with so little space to do it. This usually occurs in the context of a minor opening, on GF hands of course, where there are so many variables -- checking on major length, focusing the original minor, looking into the other minor. Quite mindboggling at times.

One tool that may help is to have more options at your first call on some GF hands. I use 2♣ after any minor opening as an artificial GF (although the exception is after a 1♣ opening, where 2♣ can be used for invitational with club support, that being the only non-GF option when you start with 2♣).

Using 2♣ as an artificial GF, 2♣ merely denies a four-card major. Opener rebids sort-of transfer-style, bidding one-under a major, one-under hearts if he has both majors, 2♠ if he has clubs (two-suited if opened 1♦, or 5+ if opened 1♣), 2NT on contextually balanced hands, 3♣ one-under diamonds, and three-bids higher than 3♣ as self-splinters for his minor.

This tool grabs away from other auctions some of the GF hands where FSF or xyz or 2-way NMF or whatever would be used. In other words, your work to be done with these FSF auctions is reduced, giving more comfort.

A simple example. If you use just FSF, after 1♦-P-1♥-P-1♠-P-?, you may want to bid 2♣ with diamond support, with clubs, or with five hearts. Opener's 2♥, therefore, would not establish hearts as trumps, such that 3♣ or 3♦ by you would now be natural, right? You might even want to raise spades in a GF manner to seek slam.

If you would have bid 2♣ directly after 1♦ if you lacked a five-card major, partner would have bid 2♥, and you would bid 3♣ or 3♦ with the clubs-only or diamonds-only hands (possibly with hearts -- unknown to partner). If you had the slam-approach hand, with spade support, you would have converted 2♥ to 2♠, agreeing trumps.

But, there's more. Now, 1♦-P-1♥-P-1♠-P-2♣ is an auction that would only occur if you held five hearts. So, if partner bids 2♥, hearts are clearly established as trumps, and any 3♣/3♦ call is not needed as natural. Furthermore, Opener knows that you have five hearts and can, by agreement, do other things, if you want, after this 2♣ call to show heart support. Maybe a splinter, maybe a jump to 3♥, maybe a jump to game. Whatever. You just have more ability to describe your hands when you have this additional manner of starting GF auctions, because not starting with 2♣ tells partner more about your hand.

A simple and amazing further note. If 2♣ is an artificial GF denying a four-card major, and is used whenever you lack a four-card major, what is 1♦-P-1♥-P-1♠-P-3NT? Balanced, with five hearts, probably minimum for GF.

You see what I mean?

This, of course, might not be your cup of tea, but if you are willing to explore new ideas, complicated or not, consider this.

[microcap]

I should mention that we do play FSF as 100% g/f, though Rex occasionally toys with playing it just as F1. I prefer it to be game forcing all the time.

We will open 2 card club suits with 17+ HCP and play a homegrown 12-16 1NT range with very frequent 5 card majors if that helps any.

[jdonn]

I like the following set of agreements with my 4SF auctions that I think make it very playable.

Allow opener to freely bid responder's major with two card support on the 2 level for his third bid. I always see people discussing things like what is the "default bid" on auctions like 1♦ 1♥ 1♠ 2♣, and it drives me crazy because there shouldn't be one! Opener should just be able to bid 2♥ on a doubleton.

Always remember the overriding principle with extremely few exceptions: It is responder who sets trumps. There can be no confusion as long as you remember that. Ken gave the example of 1♦ 1♥ 1♠ that responder might bid 2♣ with a variety of intentions. I agree, but frankly it doesn't bother me as I think there should be no confusion. If opener bids 2♥ now, responder's bids of 2♠, 3♦, 3♥ all set trumps, 2♥ did not set trumps. Simple.

In conjunction with the above, I like to play that bidding then rebidding the 4th suit is still artificial (though it tends to show some length there, else you would have a clearer idea where you are going) whereas immediately jumping in the 4th suit is natural 5-5 game forcing. So 1♦ 1♥ 1♠
3♣ is 5-5 clubs and hearts, GF.
2♣ 2♥ 3♣ is still doubt about what strain to play, maybe 3433 with no club stopper.

The last thing I would say is on opener's 3rd bid, tend toward the cheapest reasonable bid when nothing seems good. Not only does this leave responder with the most room possible most often, but it means opener's higher bids are more descriptive (as they deny the ability to make lower bids). So on the 1♦ 1♥ 1♠ 2♣ auction, as opener I would generally bid 2♦ with 4252 or 4153 even with a club stopper. The auction might continue 2♦ 2♥ 2NT, which it's easy to see is both lower and more descriptive than 2NT 3♥ 3NT.

I have other more complex and artificial suggestions that I believe help a lot, but I think the most gain won't come from a system overhaul (well maybe, since you use a 12-16 NT ) but just from a clear understanding of the principles that will help make these auctions easier and more descriptive.

[cherdano]

microcap, on Feb 24 2007, 04:57 PM, said:

We will open 2 card club suits with 17+ HCP and play a homegrown 12-16 1NT range with very frequent 5 card majors if that helps any.

I don't think a 12-16 1N helps.

[microcap]

The 12-16 NT is something fun that we made up. [we also play Keri over the 1NT bid] I have found that like all bridge systems, it creates what I call the waterbed bubble effect. You push down the problem bubble at one end, but you create a new problem bubble somewhere else. It's just a question of what bubble you can live with!