[Al_U_Card]

That explains so much!..rofl

[Winstonm]

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QUOTE (Winston on behalf of his brother who's a major in the U.S. army)
With the U.S. gone, Iran will not take over Iraq but Iraq would become in essence a satellite of Iran, giving Iran control over the oil in both countries. Iran cannot be allowed to possess this much money and influence in the middle east.


I think we should stop demonizing Iran.

Let's just suffice it to say my brother and I have a disagreement on this point.
I agree that Iran has to prove itself to be evil before being labeled a devil.

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What has fear to do with this?

Most likely nothing - it was late and I was tired when I posted this and that's the first word that come to mind. I do think that claims that the terrorists will "follow us home" is fearmongering, though. But the poll is not fear based, as you point out.

[Winstonm]

A new little tidbit on the Iraq war came out yesterday:

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By Sean Lengell
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
April 27, 2007


The Senate's No. 2 Democrat says he knew that the American public was being misled into the Iraq war but remained silent because he was sworn to secrecy as a member of the intelligence committee.
    "The information we had in the intelligence committee was not the same information being given to the American people. I couldn't believe it," Majority Whip Richard J. Durbin, Illinois Democrat, said Wednesday when talking on the Senate floor about the run-up to the Iraq war in 2002.
    "I was angry about it. [But] frankly, I couldn't do much about it because, in the intelligence committee, we are sworn to secrecy. We can't walk outside the door and say the statement made yesterday by the White House is in direct contradiction to classified information that is being given to this Congress."

They wouldn't have the chance to "follow us home" if we hadn't left home in the first place. Does this add more ammo to the Kucinich resolution to impeach Dick Cheney I wonder?

[pbleighton]

Impeachment won't and shouldn't happen until a large majority of voters want it to happen, including a lot of Republicans. It should never be a partisan action.

That doesn't mean he doesn't *deserve* it, though

Peter

[Winstonm]

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Impeachment won't and shouldn't happen until a large majority of voters want it to happen, including a lot of Republicans. It should never be a partisan action.

Agreed. Where, then, is the Republican, indeed national outrage over these misreprsentations? Seems to me in retrospect that Nixon and Clinton did little in comparison to instigating a foreign war of aggression. But then, in Nixon and Clinton times you couldn't help but being inundated by Nixon's and Clinton's wrongdoings when you turned on the six-o'clock news.

Where is the MSM in this controversy or is their silince due to the fact that there is no real "smoking gun" as were the Nixon tapes or the Monica dress stain?

[pbleighton]

Clinton should never have been impeached. He had a high approval rating, which was driven to near 70% by the impeachment process. His impeachment is a great example of what to avoid. The Republican party suffered in the 1998 elections because of this.

Nixon, OTOH, was forced to resign by congressional Republicans, who saw increasing numbers of Republican voters turn against him. This took quite a while.

I don't think this will happen to Cheney or Bush.

Peter

[Winstonm]

This is unverified and may or may not be true. But if it is true, then maybe we don't have to worry about them following us home - perhaps in a sense they are here already....there are many forms of terrorism.....

(underlined italics outline the unverified source.)

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Last week, news broke that Provo School District had blacklisted students searching for a venue to hold their alternative commencement ceremony (in case you haven't been following this story, Dick Cheney was invited by BYU to speak at the official commencement).

Now BYU Alternative Commencement has received an email from a local businesswoman named Denise Harman, who claims that all BYU students participating in activities against Dick Cheney are being tracked by local businesses. "Many businesses are noting the names involved," she says.

Why are business tracking the names of soon to be graduating students? "You are being tagged as trouble makers and added to massive 'Do Not Hire' lists," says Denise Harman, who hires hundreds of graduates every year.

She adds curtly, "Just thought you should know that activities have consequences."

[mike777]

One bad action does not justify another but I do think we forgot our history, even the history of our grandparents rather quickly.

See Wilson's savaging of civil rights of all kinds in 1919 with the full support of:
1) The People
2) Congress
3) Supreme Court

Just a few samples:
Lynching ok
Wartime restrictions on free speach
Eugene Debs going to jail for years for simply criticizing the draft

[pbleighton]

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One bad action does not justify another but I do think we forgot our history, even the history of our grandparents rather quickly.

What makes you think we forget, Mike?

Peter

[Winstonm]

Mike, I don't know if you looked at the other thread about Understanding Fundamental Islam but in it I concur that some undeterminable number of fundamental Islam has indeed declared a "jihad" against the U.S. and are and will continue to use terrorists tactics to carry out this threat. So I am not that much in disagreement with you that there is a real and verifiable threat.

I believe the parallels you have drawn between the "cold war" and the present situation are more valid than classifying this as a "global war on terror."

Thus, any comparisons between events that occured during a conventional war such as wars I and II are not appropriate. The more apt comparisons would be those that occured during the cold war.

But that is only my opinion.

[mike777]

I think we agree on more than we disagree. I do think there are lessons to be learned and worth comparing against not only the Cold War but WWI and WWII as well as the numerous Indian wars or battles.

As I mentioned we will use and discard many tactics over the years, many will be looked back on as idiotic mistakes.

Mrs Clinton believes we are in a Global war on terror but I think many other Democratic leaders have their doubts.

As far as Iraq, I do not know if the surge is the best response or not but I do have my great fears if we pull out, we will just go back in very soon and it will somehow be worse. Many disagree but the debate is worthwhile.

btw yes I think almost all of us have forgotten Wilson and what he did during the war concerning civil rights.

[Winstonm]

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btw yes I think almost all of us have forgotten Wilson and what he did during the war concerning civil rights.

I have always considered Wilson's presidency as the start of the "rot" of America, so to speak - a decided turning away from old ways toward new.

I also have my doubts and reservations about Iraq, and whether or it would indeed become a satellite state of Iran with dire consequences if the U.S. pulled out. I am not as overly fearful of Iran, though, as are many - the fundamentalist regime is a worry, but that is not all of Iran.

Still, with all my concerns, I still believe we should exit Iraq as we had no valid justifiable reason to invade in the first place, we have increased the terror threat with those actions, and the battle is truly a civil war that could spread thoughout the region. Iraq was an enemy before the invasion; the fact that if we leave that may well again be an enemy is no justification for staying, IMO.

[mike777]

"....no justification for staying, IMO. ..."

Fair enough, what is justification for staying?
What has to happen or you need to see to justify staying now, today?

[Winstonm]

mike777, on Apr 28 2007, 08:15 PM, said:

"....no justification for staying, IMO. ..."

Fair enough, what is justification for staying?
What has to happen or you need to see to justify staying now, today?

I cannot imagine a justifiable reason any longer. At one point in time I believed we were obligated to stay and help sort out the mess that we created, but it seems obvious that none of the sides want us there any longer, and we seem to be feeding the chaos rather that helping it end.

Any argument tfor a justified reason is to me based on speculation about what may happen if we leave; it is subjective interpretation - it may be well-reasoned and even a likelihood, but is it still an educated guess. I can't respond to leaving or staying based on "what if" questions.

The simple fact (IMO )is at this point in time we are causing more harm than creating good by staying. I do not think it is in the U.S. interests to continue to struggle based on speculative consequences of leaving. There is no shame in a strategic retreat, no loss in regrouping and reconsidering alternatives.

[pbleighton]

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btw yes I think almost all of us have forgotten Wilson and what he did during the war concerning civil rights.

Speak for yourself.

Peter

[mycroft]

Winstonm, on Apr 28 2007, 03:11 PM, said:

This is unverified and may or may not be true.  But if it is true, then maybe we don't have to worry about them following us home - perhaps in a sense they are here already....there are many forms of terrorism.....

(underlined italics outline the unverified source.)

Quote

Last week, news broke that Provo School District had blacklisted students searching for a venue to hold their alternative commencement ceremony (in case you haven't been following this story, Dick Cheney was invited by BYU to speak at the official commencement).

Now BYU Alternative Commencement has received an email from a local businesswoman named Denise Harman, who claims that all BYU students participating in activities against Dick Cheney are being tracked by local businesses. "Many businesses are noting the names involved," she says.

Why are business tracking the names of soon to be graduating students? "You are being tagged as trouble makers and added to massive 'Do Not Hire' lists," says Denise Harman, who hires hundreds of graduates every year.

She adds curtly, "Just thought you should know that activities have consequences."

Hey Winston, that's just Free Speech at its finest.

Yes, opinions have consequences - and if you want to publicly make your opinion known, those who dislike your opinions can choose not to associate with you.

There is legal discrimination issues, but it's perfectly legal to discriminate on politics; after all, "We don't hire registered Democrats to work for the National Republican Party" seems like common sense.

If you believe that "I don't like the current Executive enough to boycott my commencement ceremony in protest", don't expect good service or job offers from those who think the Executive is doing a great job.

I'm sure there are places where an active and empassioned defence of one's beliefs (outside of work milieu) is a hiring plus (I know for a fact that I work at one).

Now, if the Government is limiting your access (and I believe no-fly lists that just "happen" to be enforced by Industry, but made up by your friends at the TSA, is very much the Government), that's a totally different game.

Michael.