[glen]

Quite a number of players play a double of an opening bid just shows values without any other good call available (this might even be the majority of players in certain tourneys). Others play the double as takeout, as recommended in all the books. However if you click on the double during online play to find out which type of double, both styles will describe their double as takeout. You could ask a long question like "does your double promise either a very big hand or at least three cards in each of the unbid suits?" but this would just slow the game down and might confuse the issue.

So I propose that the first style be termed a "fakeout" double, as one or more of the "outs" might be "fake" (shorter than three). For example a 2=3=4=4 shape double of a 1♦ opening would be a fakeout double. Now when you click on somebody's double, the doubler could just quickly reply takeout, fakeout, t/o, or f/o.

[ArcLight]

With pick up pards I am frequently terrified of takeout doubles and their responses.

1 H - X - p - ?

You have 10 HCP, 4 Spades concentarted honors, so bid 2 S.

Pard raises you to 3, opps double. Down 2

Turns out pards DBL is based on:

S: x x x
K: K
D: K Q x
C: Q x x x


I see a fair number of fake out doubles. Seems like I always end up in 2 of the short major, down 1-2.

I don't know if the poeple making the fakeout double just don't realize what a "text book" takeout double is. I'm not sure they have an agreement, they are springing this "fakeout double" on their unsuspecting pard as well. Their pard gets burned also.

Do experts use "fakeout doubles"?

[glen]

While it is not expert methods to play fakeout doubles (at least deliberately), there are certain advantages to the fakeout approach:

- You get into the bidding with values – this might find a good partscore or game where experts methods would not provide an easy path into the auction.
- You force the opponents to continue to investigate for 4-4 fits in the unbid major or majors, as the double does not promise any length in an unbid major. This means you can often allow the opponents to identify your fit – if they find a fit, you usually have one, and they just bid your suits, then let them play the contract.
- Advancer (partner of the doubler) must be careful to bid only real suits (usually five or longer) at higher levels. With no real suit, advancer can keep the bidding low, or bid notrump, or cuebid to explore possible landing spots. Bidding real suits will help with leads, while keeping the bidding low or bidding notrump can work on a whole bunch of layouts.
- If you end up defending the hand, declarer will find it harder to get a read on the hand shapes of the hands.
- Advancer may be able to pass 1 of a minor doubled without a stack in the suit, taking the chance that the doubler is not very short in the opened minor.

This list of advantages may not be complete and I would be interested in any others.

Personally I’m tempted to switch to fakeout doubles (really!) to explore the pluses and minuses of this approach in average fields. After all, thousands of satisfied customers can’t be wrong?

[matmat]

at the risk of being non-pc, it does strike me that this is a mainly a geographical difference. north americans tend to double on shape with, often, suspect values, whereas europeans tend to double on values. I suppose either treatment is okay so long as both parts of the partnership are on the same page. (I have no data on other continents, though I imagine penguins rely mostly on values, as they have no shape).

[glen]

matmat, on Jan 14 2007, 02:45 PM, said:

I imagine penguins rely mostly on values, as they have no shape

plus they have happy feet to shuffle to the right spot

[jtfanclub]

officeglen, on Jan 14 2007, 02:41 PM, said:

This list of advantages may not be complete and I would be interested in any others.

Less likely to go for 800-1400 at the 2 level.

I don't know about you, but I tend to find that gold's more likely when the opponents X my 1♥ opener with

Qxxx
x
Kxxx
Kxxx

which is instant death when my partner is short on hearts and the strongest hand at the table, vs.

KJT
xxx
AKx
Kxxx

provided your agreements allow the latter to be an X, of course.
Even if they have a penalty X, it's unlikely that they'll find it.

I think the real problem is that people don't use XX to mean 'let's crush them like grapes' as much any more. People stop thinking of 8 card fits being safe at the 2 level regardless of points after they go down 4 or 5 doubled a couple of times.

These days, nobody wants to play X's as opening count and near-perfect shape and 1NT overcalls as 15+, since the combination means lots of uncontested auctions for the opponents. If you do expand the X, I think wider shapes is safer than wider points.

[paulg]

matmat, on Jan 14 2007, 08:45 PM, said:

at the risk of being non-pc, it does strike me that this is a mainly a geographical difference. north americans tend to double on shape with, often, suspect values, whereas europeans tend to double on values. I suppose either treatment is okay so long as both parts of the partnership are on the same page.  (I have no data on other continents, though I imagine penguins rely mostly on values, as they have no shape).

It is normal for David Burn to humorously denigrate traditional British teaching when he speaks at England's largest congress. He blames 'the old school' for telling everyone that they need 5551 distribution and a 15 count before they can make a takeout double ... whereas the 'Europeans' double 1♥ with any opening hand holding 4 spades and children are taught this with bidding boxes before they learn to talk

I've always known the 'fakeout' as an 'Italian' takeout double.

paul

[CharlieS]

Didn't the Italian takeout include exclusion bids by advancer?

[helene_t]

Those who double a natural opening of one of a suit with just about any 14 -count don't adhere to standard terminology anyway, let alone new "standard" terminology. It's a vasted effort.

[keylime]

There's already a term for this: the "zone double".

The "zone double" is a hand with opening values that ensures trump length in opener's denomination OR a hand that has a planned rebid.

To me it's akin to the "minimum offshape takeout double", which is the "double on any 13 cards with values" call.