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Best Use of 1M-3C, 1M-3D

#1 User is offline   Yzerman 

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Posted 2003-May-08, 06:38

At this moment, most of my regular partnerships and I play 1M-3C and 3D and 3H as invitational fit showing jumps.  I am starting to draw to the conclusion that the frequency of these are so rare that I would like to find a new meaning for these bids.  

What to use?

a) Bergen (I DETEST BERGEN - SEE NOTES)
:) Purely invitational in that minor
c) Mini-Splinter
d) Invitational Fit Jumps
e) Weak Fit Jumps
f) Others

Personally, I dont like bergen and weak fit jump can be bid through a forcing NT and at the moment my affinity toward invitational fit jumps is waning hence that leaves me to evaluate the benefits/risks of Mini-Splinter and Pure Invitation in that minor.  If I had a gun to my head and had to choose one right now, I would probably choose Pure Invitation but I would appreciate any feedback on this subject.

* NOTE - NOW MY BERGEN DISSERTATION (LOL).  I really dont like to play this, however in a few partnerships I play it where I can trust my partners judgement.  This may be the most abused bid ever in bridge.  Much like those that abuse multi 2D, this bid is a license to bid like a jerk.  I have missed quite a few games/slams when my partner has something like (on 1H-3C, weak, x  xxxx  Axxx Axxx - THIS IS NOT A WEAK H RAISE!).  Some argue that the preempt 3M bid has some value, while I agree I also tend to think that it gives alot of informatin to the opps (they know of 9 card H fit and a weak response hence they have safety in balancing or pre-balancing), and furthermore if you are playing the likes of Meckwell or the like this is hardly going to stop them from bidding if that was their intention!!!
MAL
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#2 User is offline   JRG 

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Posted 2003-May-08, 07:18

I have no idea whether it is optimum or not. My long-time partner and I play these as what we call "Splimit", which may be the same as "MiniSplinter" -- a limit raise based on the shortness as part of the values.

We play, over Majors only, jumpshift = Splimit and normal Splinters (i.e. one more than jumpshift). Someone explained another interesting approach that sounds like it has some merit (although Shep has good arguments that splinters should show precisely a singleton):

Slightly different depending on whether the 1M is hearts or spades.

1S - 3NT shows undisclosed singleton; 4!C asks; D & H show that one; S shows club.

  - 3x=Splimit
  - 4x=void

1H - 2S, 3C, 3D = Splimit
  - 3S = undisclosed singleton; 3NT asks; C & D show that, H shows S

 -  3NT=spade void
  - 4C, 4D = void

My only problem with it (thinking about it, I've only played it once) is that I have a lousy memory, despite the sequences being logical.

In the minors: Preemptive jumpshifts in the Majors; jumpshift in the other minor=limit raise; single raise=game-force; jump raise=preempt (i.e. a form of Inverted Raises with Criss-cross).
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#3 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2003-May-08, 10:04

At least I can address some of this list of ways to play 3C/3D over 1 of a major, since I have tried it each way on your list. First, I am not as totally anti-bergen as you are. But, and I admit, I almost never use the bid. But what I do like, and what I use a lot, is the ability to jump to 3S over 1S on junk and 4 card support, so whatever bidding structure I end up, I would like to keep that option.

Mini-splinters, I played a fair deal, especially by a passed hand (I would use bergen by unpassed, and splimit by passed hand). This has been reasonably successful, but the problem is if you are limited, with fit, and a short suit, in today's bridge, somebody else has bid before it has gotten back to you. That is, it doens't come up enough to be useful, and even when it does, a fit jump is usually available anway (see below). Also, I began using two way Drury, so 2C and 2D where not available to me as natural and if I took away 3C/3D as more fit showing, well, you see what I thought the problem was. So I started playing 3C/3D by a passed hand as invitational with the minor, but kept 3C/3D by unpassed hand as bergen.

Finally, I started experimenting with 1S-3C/3D/3H and 1H-2S/3C/3D as fit jumps. The rule I have been using with Papathegreek is that these jumps are either invitational or near slam force (wide range difference). There was no change for position. Opener assumes limit at first. We also use the double jump shifts as game forcing fit jumps only (never "extra" over game force). This has evolved a number of changes, one is I still want to be able to show splinter raises. The solution was to fine tune this a little bit... 1H-2S is no longer the fit jump in spades, but rather a relay (major fit), and 1H-2N is fit jump in spades. Over 1S-2N is the relay. Opener bids 3C and responder shows his intent with the relay, which could be to show a short suit splinter).

Another change, becasue I like my 1S-3S being weak, is the use of 2C to have multiple meanings. I will try to discuss this in context of your other post about DC standard, but in a nutshell, we play 2C as either a true game force with clubs, or some kind of limited major raise. I have to admit that this has had some good sucesses and some horrible problems. Opponents, especially vulnerable ones, will not be too keen to risk overcalling 2C if it shows game force and possible misfit, and by the time you pull out your major fit, several passes has gotten contagious. The problem is with the second bid and in competition, if they do interfer, what shows what.  

But enough rambling, back the question at hand. Fit jumps and purely inventational are good uses. It turns out, I am beginning to think if you want to play the jump as inventational, it is actually better used by an unpassed hand, and fit jumps are better by passed hand. That is opposite the way I started playing these bids. This is because third seat opening are often light, and I have gotten too high jumping with a hand I couldn't open with and without a fit. Seems obvious to me now, but I was worried about biddign the minor not what made sense when I decided on the limit bid. At least if we have a fit if you reverse these and partner is weak, the fit jump would allow us to play at the three level in our 9 card fit, and may help us find magic games with weak third seat opener. Likewise, 1st/2nd seat opening are usually "sound" (lol, by today's definition, sound is almost anything) and the invintational jump limits the range of the 1NT then new minor rebid by responder.
 
Final analysis, I am ready and willing to give up on Bergen if limit raise can be shown by another mechanism (maybe 2NT using SMART convention for instance). Splimit is not that necessary, fit jumps work well (I don't play them "weak" but passable at the level bid). I see you didn't mention "Solway Jumpshift" or preemptive jumpshift. I agree with leavng both out here, but, I was surprized you didn't mention them. If you do play these as strong jumpshifts, I recommend they be Soloway-like. I am sick and tired of my partners insisting on preemptive jumpshifts after we open, then jump in a T high suit, where I will be on lead... imagine...

Me 1D-P-2S-3H-P-4H-PPP and the only lead that lets them make is if I lead my partners suit. GACK.....  
--Ben--

#4 User is offline   mishovnbg 

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Posted 2003-May-12, 09:06

I think that jump shifts depend what system u playing. 2/1 system need weak or inv nat jump shifts, else 1NT RF become swamp:). If u play limited opening like prec then u can play it as like, but over 1CL opening opp can play as they like :) I personally prefer Robson/Segal style of bidding, but dont sgree to forget about 3NT game! Several type of fit raises - YES, but several type of 3NT inv - also YES. Bridge is game of balance of reasons for me. So: unclear limit raise like 1HE-2SP/1SP-2NT, after that u can ask for suit or singleton, what do u prefer. Inv nat 3CL/3D, if u dont play transfers.
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