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I'm curious because when I see people play this suit in real life, they almost always take two of the six lines. Yet one of the lines I frequently see played appears to have little to recommend it over the others...
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Suit Combination Quick answer please!
#1
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Posted 2006-December-12, 15:55
Please answer the poll how you'd play at the table; don't think too hard.
I'm curious because when I see people play this suit in real life, they almost always take two of the six lines. Yet one of the lines I frequently see played appears to have little to recommend it over the others...
I'm curious because when I see people play this suit in real life, they almost always take two of the six lines. Yet one of the lines I frequently see played appears to have little to recommend it over the others...
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
#2
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Posted 2006-December-12, 16:06
Oops, misread...ignore the vote for ace then small to the queen
#4
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Posted 2006-December-12, 16:45
ace then low to the q10 if play for one loser
if playing for no losers then low to the ten first
most people when playing aqxxx opp xxx usually just hook the q but % wise there will be times you lose to the stiff king, every little bit helps, if playing for one loser then there will be times you can catch the stiff j or stiff k by playing ace first
if playing for no losers then low to the ten first
most people when playing aqxxx opp xxx usually just hook the q but % wise there will be times you lose to the stiff king, every little bit helps, if playing for one loser then there will be times you can catch the stiff j or stiff k by playing ace first
#5
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Posted 2006-December-12, 17:35
Haha you got me Adam. I voted for A then low to the T.
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
#6 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2006-December-12, 17:35
cherdano, on Dec 12 2006, 06:35 PM, said:
Haha you got me Adam. I voted for A then low to the T.
Oo... I guess this happens because thats the right way to play AQTxxx opp xxx for 1 loser.
#7
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Posted 2006-December-12, 18:32
The quick way to decide these things is to ask yourself what layout particular plays are catering to, & what they pay off to. Think about what holdings make a difference - KJ, Jx, Kx, and the answer should be obvious.
Playing ace first on this sort of holding (with 9xx opposite) isn't really about stiff J (doesn't help you), or stiff K (does stop you from 3 losers but still have 2). It has more to do with catering to KJ / KT offside.
Quote
most people when playing aqxxx opp xxx usually just hook the q but % wise there will be times you lose to the stiff king, every little bit helps, if playing for one loser then there will be times you can catch the stiff j or stiff k by playing ace first
Playing ace first on this sort of holding (with 9xx opposite) isn't really about stiff J (doesn't help you), or stiff K (does stop you from 3 losers but still have 2). It has more to do with catering to KJ / KT offside.
#8
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Posted 2006-December-13, 00:06
I voted for Ace and small to 10.
Senshu
#9
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Posted 2006-December-13, 03:30
At the table, as here, you simply work through all the possible combinations. There's a shortcut for this suit combination, though:
- the "natural" line is low to the 10, then low to the 9. This clearly picks up any holding with one or both honours onside. The only pick-up-able layout it loses to is KJ doubleton offside.
- What if we cash the ace first? On the second round we are going to play low to the 10 (to pick up KJxx onside) and lose to Jx offside. That is more likely than KJ doubleton offside, so the ace first is a worse line.
Cashing the ace first is right if you can guarantee to play the right card from dummy on the second round of the suit, but most of us aren't blessed with double dummy vision.
- the "natural" line is low to the 10, then low to the 9. This clearly picks up any holding with one or both honours onside. The only pick-up-able layout it loses to is KJ doubleton offside.
- What if we cash the ace first? On the second round we are going to play low to the 10 (to pick up KJxx onside) and lose to Jx offside. That is more likely than KJ doubleton offside, so the ace first is a worse line.
Cashing the ace first is right if you can guarantee to play the right card from dummy on the second round of the suit, but most of us aren't blessed with double dummy vision.
#10
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Posted 2006-December-13, 08:27
This is a simple double finesse combination. Low to the 10 and if it loses to the jack, finesse the 9 next. 1 out of 2 finesses, roughly 76%.
Roland
Roland
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#11
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Posted 2006-December-13, 13:44
Certainly if you treat this as a "problem" it's not all that hard to work out the right answer.
What I find interesting, is that at the table I very frequently see people play the fourth line (low to queen, then bang down ace). As far as I can tell this line doesn't have much to recommend it, but nonetheless it's popular among non-expert players.
What I find interesting, is that at the table I very frequently see people play the fourth line (low to queen, then bang down ace). As far as I can tell this line doesn't have much to recommend it, but nonetheless it's popular among non-expert players.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
#12
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Posted 2006-December-13, 14:30
It is quite rare that you are making these decisions in a vacuum of external information. Often the percentage advantage of the best line over the second best line in a vacuum is so marginal that it can take very little by way of external influence to swing it the other way. The classic example is where you have AJTx opposite K98xx. The "eight ever, nine never" brigade will bash out the Ace and King, but if you watch top players in these situations they will often form an opinion from what has gone before that one player is either more likely to hold the Q or more likely to hold the greater length should they break unevenly. That kind of feel will tip the balance.
Going back to the vacuum, I find it quite unintuitive what is the best line for 4 tricks in the original example on this thread but substitute "x" for the 9. In that case the correct play is to finesse the Q first time and then finesse the T if the Q loses. Well, that is what suitplay tells me, and while I have not audited it I trust it.
Going back to the vacuum, I find it quite unintuitive what is the best line for 4 tricks in the original example on this thread but substitute "x" for the 9. In that case the correct play is to finesse the Q first time and then finesse the T if the Q loses. Well, that is what suitplay tells me, and while I have not audited it I trust it.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. m
s
t
r-m
nd
ing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.
"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
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Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. m
str-mnding) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees."Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
#13
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Posted 2006-December-13, 14:49
1eyedjack, on Dec 14 2006, 09:30 AM, said:
Going back to the vacuum, I find it quite unintuitive what is the best line for 4 tricks in the original example on this thread but substitute "x" for the 9. In that case the correct play is to finesse the Q first time and then finesse the T if the Q loses. Well, that is what suitplay tells me, and while I have not audited it I trust it.
I think the relevant cases are stiff jack offside and KJxxx onside ...
Without the 9 small to the queen wins against the stiff jack and loses to KJxxx and since any 4-1 break is more likely than any 5-0 this is (marginally - see your other point) worthwhile.
With the 9 you can cater to making four tricks against either distribution with a first round finesse of the 10(9).
Wayne Burrows
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#14 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2006-December-13, 15:05
Cascade, on Dec 13 2006, 03:49 PM, said:
1eyedjack, on Dec 14 2006, 09:30 AM, said:
Going back to the vacuum, I find it quite unintuitive what is the best line for 4 tricks in the original example on this thread but substitute "x" for the 9. In that case the correct play is to finesse the Q first time and then finesse the T if the Q loses. Well, that is what suitplay tells me, and while I have not audited it I trust it.
I think the relevant cases are stiff jack offside and KJxxx onside ...
Without the 9 small to the queen wins against the stiff jack and loses to KJxxx and since any 4-1 break is more likely than any 5-0 this is (marginally - see your other point) worthwhile.
With the 9 you can cater to making four tricks against either distribution with a first round finesse of the 10(9).
KJfifth is not relevant without the 9 since you cant pick it up no matter what you do (if the x's are literal, they are the lowest card, so 432 opp AQT65 can never pick up 5-0 onside for one loser). Stiff jack is the only relevant combo, and low to the queen indeed picks that up.
for 1 loser even with the 9 there is no difference between low to the queen low to the ten and low to the ten low to the queen, its just that low to the ten first allows you to play the suit for 0 losers more often.
#15
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Posted 2006-December-13, 15:43
Isn't there a difference? Say the suit is:
On the first round:
2 - 6 - Q - pitch
Then on the second round:
3 - 7 - T - pitch
And the third round:
4 - J - A - pitch
And now:
So actually leading low to queen will fail to pick up the 5-0 onside break for one loser, whereas low to ten will work.
On the first round:
2 - 6 - Q - pitch
Then on the second round:
3 - 7 - T - pitch
And the third round:
4 - J - A - pitch
And now:
So actually leading low to queen will fail to pick up the 5-0 onside break for one loser, whereas low to ten will work.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
#16 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2006-December-13, 15:52
awm, on Dec 13 2006, 04:43 PM, said:
Isn't there a difference? Say the suit is:
On the first round:
2 - 6 - Q - pitch
Then on the second round:
3 - 7 - T - pitch
And the third round:
4 - J - A - pitch
And now:
So actually leading low to queen will fail to pick up the 5-0 onside break for one loser, whereas low to ten will work.
On the first round:
2 - 6 - Q - pitch
Then on the second round:
3 - 7 - T - pitch
And the third round:
4 - J - A - pitch
And now:
So actually leading low to queen will fail to pick up the 5-0 onside break for one loser, whereas low to ten will work.
yeah good point if you dont have the 8 or the 7
my bad. but still without the 9 KJ fifth is irrelevant, and with the 8 or with the 7 it is irrelevant heh.
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