[the hog]

V vs NVul, Imps
You are playing a big C system. 1C = 16+ any.

(P) 1C (5S) ?

A
AKJxxx
xxx
Kxx

Your bid? Part 3 will follow.
In principle, you play that Xs through 4S are t/o, above that doubles "show cards."

[mike777]

5nt

Perhaps we can ruff spades and ruff hearts in a minor suit slam?

[pbleighton]

6H.

Peter

[Robert]

Hi everyone

6H.

Regards,
Robert

[neilkaz]

6♥ for me..we have 31+ HCP and I have a very good 6 carder and PD is free to carry on or X them if the bid 6♠.

I'm not taking a direct shot to 7♥ as I may be off the Q of ♥ or my Ace of ♠ may get ruffed or we may have only 12 tricks if PD is really min.

If I double to show cards, I'm not sure that I am showing cards this good and I think we have less info to make the right decision over 6♠.

.. neilkaz ..

[FrancesHinden]

I'm surprised at the votes for 6H.

We have a huge hand, but there's no reason to suspect hearts are the right spot, and we are probably making at the 7-level. Partner rates to have 16+ HCP outside spades and we have 11, so we are missing at most 3 and any finesse is likely to be right.

I don't know our partnership style: would he open something like

x
x
AKQJxx
AQJxx

1C?

I'm not a regular Precision player: if we pass, is it forcing?

If it is I would pass to see what develops, assuming that is more encouraging than double. With the sort of hand shown above partner will probably bid 5NT and we can try 7C.

[pbleighton]

"but there's no reason to suspect hearts are the right spot"

Well, you have a very good 6 card suit, and lefty is probably short in hearts. I don't know, but I do suspect

"I'm not a regular Precision player: if we pass, is it forcing?"

Most people play it as NF.

Peter

[hrothgar]

FrancesHinden, on Dec 3 2006, 02:26 PM, said:

I'm not a regular Precision player: if we pass, is it forcing?

I hadn't given much thought to 5M overcalls over a strong club opening before last night. Its not a bid that really crops up that often.

After a bit of thought, I think that pass should be forcing: You don't overcall 5♠ as a constructive call. 5♠ isn't a contract that you expect to make, nor is it some kind of delicate probe for a slam. You bid 5M to put the screws on.

Using a forcing pass makes lot of sense. We need the bidding space to probe for strain. Furthermore, a forcing pass will make it easier for us to punish the opps for their affront.

[whereagles]

I don't have space to find out whether 6m plays better or if 7-something is on. So I guess 6♥, since it's our most likely slam.

[pclayton]

I hope you play forcing passes here. When I played a strong club, I played them over 3♠ and higher.

I would make a FP and pull a double (or 6 of a (minor) to 6♥. This shows a HUGE hand.

Lacking anything sophisticated, I would just blast 7♥.

By the way, I'm really suprised at those that just stay fixed over 5♠ with 6♥. Pard has 16+, and presumably RHO has ♠KQJ. We have 15; which leaves a max of 3 outstanding outside of spades. There's a very high chances pard has the ♥Q, regardless of minor suit length.

[whereagles]

what if pard doesn't have the ♥Q?

[pclayton]

whereagles, on Dec 3 2006, 11:03 AM, said:

what if pard doesn't have the ♥Q?

Then we have solid minors right?

[whereagles]

Well, I was referring to blasting 7♥

[mike777]

If you think finesse is on do you not want to play in 7 of a minor?

"Simple Club" and many strong clubbers play Double at the 4H level or higher as showing little or no offensive quality.
Perhaps:
85....643....Q852....8642

A pass indicated some offensive values, perhaps:
64...Q873...QJ52....752

6H or 7H seems too unilateral
Pass shows a weaker but not busted hand sooo... I will stick with 5nt....

[Codo]

pass of 5 ♠ is surely forcing.
Now I see no way to find a grand with convidence, so I would bid 7 ♥ an a great event against good opps and 6 NT in the club.
I must admit, that this hand is a reason to bid 5 and not 4♠ because it takes away a 5 ♠ bid from responder....

[Winstonm]

We are only playing in a 30 point deck (minus spade cards). We are missing 19 of those 30 and partner holds 16 of those, minimum. Grand slam should be at worst on a finesse for a king that should be onside.

I bid 6 spades and will correct 6N to 7H. If partner bids 7C or 7D, I pass.

[the hog]

Part 3 - the result

The 1C bidder held:

xx
xx
AKQJx
AQJx

As you can see, Hearts broke 5-0 and with QTxxx outstanding, 6H drifted one off. 7m is cold if played from the right side.

The hand provoked a lot of discussion -

The 5S bidder said he would only have bid 4S if he held no void. The void made a bad break more likely for the opps. This argument is somewhat too esoteric for me!

The holder of this hand did indeed bid 6H. The 6H bidder said he was not sure if pass of 5S was forcing. It should be. Marston and Burgess did a lot of work on bidding over pre empts of 1C and came to this conclusion.

Can a m suit slam be found if pass is nf? Mike777 suggested a bid of 5NT rather than 6H. Perhaps but that would lead to a moysian too often I think.

I would be interested to know what posters feel about the above arguments. As I stated, all 4 players are expert level.

[Apollo81]

The_Hog, on Dec 2 2006, 10:48 PM, said:

V vs NVul, Imps
You are playing a big C system. 1C = 16+ any.

(P)  1C (5S) ?

A
AKJxxx
xxx
Kxx

Your bid? Part 3 will follow.
In principle, you play that Xs through 4S are t/o, above that doubles "show cards."

I would expect seven to make most of the time, but I don't know what trumps should be. It pretty much depends on partner's heart holding.

I like 5NT here, followed by 6♥. Partner should understand that this is correctable. I would expect him to bid 6♠ if he is not passing, at which point I will retreat to 7 of his suit.

There's something to be said for bidding a direct 6♠. This may stampede the opps into a save.

-Noble

[Apollo81]

How can pass be forcing over 5♠? Pard has shown less than half the deck and my hand has shown nothing at all. It seems a bit presumptious to say it's not their hand just becasue they bid 5♠.


Added later -- well maybe I am being too naive. LHO is a PH after all. Still, I might bid 5s on something like AKQxxxx --- x AQJ109 Especially if all of you think that pass is forcing over this.....