[bid_em_up]

#1. 4♥

#2. 6♦

[pclayton]

Just curious. For those that cue and bid ♥'s, or just bid 2♥, what kind of hand do you think shows a 4♥ call?

[hrothgar]

pclayton, on Nov 27 2006, 10:15 PM, said:

Just curious. For those that cue and bid ♥'s, or just bid 2♥, what kind of hand do you think shows a 4♥ call?

This is one of those questions where a Bridge Browser study would be useful. I'd be interested to see a set of representative hands where the auction started

(1m) - X - (P) - 4M

Personally, I think that there are two reasonable ways to treat a 4M bid. (I don't think that you can combine the two hand types)

1. Advancer holds a single suited hand and scattered values.

♠ Qx
♥ KJT963
♦ Kxx
♣ xx

This hand will play well in 4♥ opposite either a takeout double or a Strong NT oriented hand. Hearts is still probably going to be the best place to play if partner produces a stiff honor. (Type 1 is is my preferred interpretation)

2. Advancer holds a good hand with 4-5 hearts and has good reason to believe that the doubler has a takeout oriented hand

♠ Kx
♥ KQT73
♦ Kx
♣ Qxxx

For me, the difference between this hand and the one in the original hand is the Spade length. I think that its much more likely that partner has a strong single suited hand with Spades with the original hand than opposite this type of holding.

Here I'd prefer to start with a 2♣ cue bid.

[awm]

I'd bid only 2♥ on the first hand and pass on the second.

For the first hand, I'm not convinced that this makes game opposite a minimum takeout double. For example:

KQxx Kxx Axxx xx

We might make 4♥, but we need the spade ace onside and a heart break. This is a normal minimum takeout double.

AKxx Kxx Qxxx xx

Here we need diamonds 3-2 with the ace falling doubleton (and we guess right which hand has ace) as well as a heart break.

KQxx KJxx Jxxx x

Here it will be hard to avoid losing two diamonds and one in each black suit.

Maybe my standards for takeout doubles are lower than most peoples? But I see a lot of people making off-shape doubles and weaker doubles than these hands.

On the second hand we could easily be making 6♦, but 5♦ could be bid as a save. Keeping in mind that the ♥K will be worthless for us and that partner has a right to expect some values for my takeout double, I don't think my hand is all that much better than average. Surely I could have another club or two and fewer diamonds (KQxx xxxx Qx xxx or something) but it's not clear how much of an asset my club singleton will necessarily be.

-----------

As for a 4♥ bid over a takeout double, I prefer this to be an intermediate sort of hand with six hearts (okay at least jumping to the four-level over a one-level takeout double). The main issues:

(1) If partner has extras and I have a values 4♥ bid, we could easily have slam. But jumping so high takes up all the space and makes it hard to investigate.

(2) I can't really imagine what else I would bid with six-plus hearts and an intermediate hand, since I really don't want to miss game, but if I bid 4♥ on both hands it's even harder for partner to figure out when to bid on.

(3) There is always a chance that partner has some off-shape double. It's annoying to try to investigate strain at the four-level. So my 4♥ bid should guarantee that hearts are a reasonable place to play if partner has some big hand without a lot of hearts.

[HeartA]

pclayton, on Nov 27 2006, 02:15 PM, said:

Just curious. For those that cue and bid ♥'s, or just bid 2♥, what kind of hand do you think shows a 4♥ call?

For me, 4♥ is not an option at all circumtances.

awm said:

(1) If partner has extras and I have a values 4♥ bid, we could easily have slam. But jumping so high takes up all the space and makes it hard to investigate.

(2) I can't really imagine what else I would bid with six-plus hearts and an intermediate hand, since I really don't want to miss game, but if I bid 4♥ on both hands it's even harder for partner to figure out when to bid on.

(3) There is always a chance that partner has some off-shape double. It's annoying to try to investigate strain at the four-level. So my 4♥ bid should guarantee that hearts are a reasonable place to play if partner has some big hand without a lot of hearts.

(1) Agree.
(2) You seem to contradict your first point. With 6 hearts and intermediate hand, it is equivalent to a "values 4♥" hand. I would start with 2♣ and listen to what pd has. Then I could emphasize my heart twice if necessary to show good hand and long hearts.
(3) If pd has a big hand without a lot of hearts, I will get the information by starting with 2C bid easily without wasting so much space.

[Fluffy]

First one looks like book's 3♥

Second one is a guess, partner will have the aces more than 50% of the time, but that doesn't mean 6 is the best bid on the long run. Yet I'll bid them.

[awm]

My point is basically to look at these two hands:

(1) Kx AQxxx Kxx xxx

(2) xx AQJxxx xx xxx

LHO opens 1♣ and partner makes a takeout double. It seems clear that the most likely contract is 4♥ on both hands. For example partner might hold a moderately nice minimum:

AQxx Kxx Axxx xx

However, the issue is that sometimes partner's hand doesn't look like the one above. Partner might have extra values, either with or without hearts. For example:

(X) AQxx Kxxx AQxx x

(Y) AQJxxx xx AQx Ax

With (X) opposite (1), we are virtually cold for 6♥. I want partner to bid on. With (X) opposite (2) I don't really want to be in 6♥ and would prefer partner to pass (or at most bid to 5♥).

With (Y) opposite (1), playing the hand in hearts is awful and even 4♥ may fail while 4♠ is on ice and 6♠ has reasonable play. I certainly don't want partner to pass 4♥.

With (Y) opposite (2), playing the hand in 4♥ is quite reasonable.

I don't see a reasonable alternative to bidding 4♥ with hand (2). This is virtually always where we want to play the hand. Taking it slow with hand (2) (i.e. cuebidding) seems bizarre, since opponents could easily have half the values and I want to pressure them, plus I know virtually all the time where we should play the hand so why try to start a delicate negotiation? On the other hand, examples (X) and (Y) above imply that if I'm going to bid 4♥ with hand (2), I probably shouldn't bid 4♥ also with hand (1). Thus I will start hand (1) with a cuebid. This makes it easier to bid to slam opposite (X) and get to spades opposite (Y).

[the hog]

Fluffy, on Nov 28 2006, 06:06 AM, said:

First one looks like book's 3♥

Second one is a guess, partner will have the aces more than 50% of the time, but that doesn't mean 6 is the best bid on the long run. Yet I'll bid them.

I think you will find that most people play 3H as pre emptive Fluffy - a 6+ card suit and not much else.

[neilkaz]

pclayton, on Nov 27 2006, 01:15 PM, said:

Just curious. For those that cue and bid ♥'s, or just bid 2♥, what kind of hand do you think shows a 4♥ call?

I'd like a 6th ♥ and not too much strength that slam is likely. .. ie 4♥ should be a sign off unless PD has a monster which would require that the opening was minimal and responder is almost broke or totally broke.

More comments please on this !! .. ty .. neilkaz ..

[neilkaz]

The_Hog, on Nov 27 2006, 08:19 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Nov 28 2006, 06:06 AM, said:

First one looks like book's 3♥

Second one is a guess, partner will have the aces more than 50% of the time, but that doesn't mean 6 is the best bid on the long run. Yet I'll bid them.

I think you will find that most people play 3H as pre emptive Fluffy - a 6+ card suit and not much else.

Yes, many people now feel this is preferable to a super invitational since the jump to 2♥ shows 9-11 for most and the take out doubler can invite with a bit extra.

I suppose another way to play it is as a good GF H hand wanting PD to Q bid with some extras, punt with 3NT with no spade control and a bit extra and just bid 4♥ with a bare min.

Anyhow, I prefer it as a weak hand with lots of ♥.

[pclayton]

I believe the different interpretations of 3♥ is just different agreements. In the US its preemptive, but in other places its invitational with a 5th heart.

[pclayton]

awm, on Nov 27 2006, 11:42 AM, said:

I'd bid only 2♥ on the first hand and pass on the second.

For the first hand, I'm not convinced that this makes game opposite a minimum takeout double. For example:

KQxx Kxx Axxx xx

We might make 4♥, but we need the spade ace onside and a heart break. This is a normal minimum takeout double.

AKxx Kxx Qxxx xx

Here we need diamonds 3-2 with the ace falling doubleton (and we guess right which hand has ace) as well as a heart break.

KQxx KJxx Jxxx x

Here it will be hard to avoid losing two diamonds and one in each black suit.

Maybe my standards for takeout doubles are lower than most peoples? But I see a lot of people making off-shape doubles and weaker doubles than these hands.

"KQxx, Kxx, Axxx, xx is a normal minimum TOx". Don't you want to be in 4♥ with the opening bidder on your left?

"AKxx Kxx Qxxx xx". Perhaps you didn't notice the ♦ spots. All you need is to find the J♦ for 4♥ (and the 3-2 break)

"KQxx KJxx Jxxx x". As bad as this takeout double is, 4♥ is only on a hook.

None of these examples (or any others posted) have convinced me that 4♥ is a bad call. If you want to insist on a 6th heart, thats fine. Put me down then for 2♣ followed by a forcing ♥ call.

I think the above examples are as bad as takeout doubles get, and we have a good play for game on all of them.

[the hog]

pclayton, on Nov 28 2006, 05:15 AM, said:

Just curious. For those that cue and bid ♥'s, or just bid 2♥, what kind of hand do you think shows a 4♥ call?

Phil, my worry on this hand would be that partner has a big hand with a Ssuit - too big to overcall in S. The cue followed by a H bid caters to this. A 4H bid for me would show a hand with long , almost self sufficient Hs and limited strength - better than what for me be a pre emptive bid of 3, which I'd make with QJT to 6 and out.
I totally agree with you that opposite a normal t/o X you want to be in 4 and I cannot understand the posters who bid 2H on this - to me this is weird hand evaluation and that is being polite. Jeez, I would bid 2H on KQ to 5 and out.

Phil, I don't see the logic of playing 3H as inv as well; perhaps this is only me but is seems to trying to stop on a sixpence so to speak.

[whereagles]

The_Hog, on Nov 28 2006, 02:19 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Nov 28 2006, 06:06 AM, said:

First one looks like book's 3♥

Second one is a guess, partner will have the aces more than 50% of the time, but that doesn't mean 6 is the best bid on the long run. Yet I'll bid them.

I think you will find that most people play 3H as pre emptive Fluffy - a 6+ card suit and not much else.

Depends. Where I live it's played as 5 cards and 8-10 hcp, maybe less with compensating shape.

[pclayton]

The_Hog, on Nov 27 2006, 09:55 PM, said:

pclayton, on Nov 28 2006, 05:15 AM, said:

Just curious. For those that cue and bid ♥'s, or just bid 2♥, what kind of hand do you think shows a 4♥ call?

Phil, my worry on this hand would be that partner has a big hand with a Ssuit - too big to overcall in S. The cue followed by a H bid caters to this. A 4H bid for me would show a hand with long , almost self sufficient Hs and limited strength - better than what for me be a pre emptive bid of 3, which I'd make with QJT to 6 and out.
I totally agree with you that opposite a normal t/o X you want to be in 4 and I cannot understand the posters who bid 2H on this - to me this is weird hand evaluation and that is being polite. Jeez, I would bid 2H on KQ to 5 and out.

Phil, I don't see the logic of playing 3H as inv as well; perhaps this is only me but is seems to trying to stop on a sixpence so to speak.

If we start with a cue bid and pard bids spades, how will we know he has a monster? Ron:

Assuming we start with 2♣, he bids 2♠..3♥..?? The auction rates to develop awkwardly. I'm not saying 4♥ solves the problem, but the idea of conducting a scientific auction may not be as easy as you suggest.

Even then, what are the chances pard has a spade monster? We have a good 9 count; LHO presumably has 12(+) which leaves 19 (-). Its possible I guess.

Maybe my overcalling standards are higher than most. I would overcall 1♣ with 1♠ with a hand like AQJxxx, Kx, Ax, Axx, which is the hand type you see to be worried about.

By the way, I never suggested that 3♥ should be invitational (versus preemptive). I merely stated that other places in the world play it that way.

[HeartA]

Phil,

After 2CL cue-bid and pd bid 2S and 3H rebid, doubler's bid would tell if he has a monster hand or an ordinary hand. If he simply raised to 4H, that would tell an ordinary hand. If he bid something else, including rebid 3S, that would mean a monster hand.

[pclayton]

HeartA, on Nov 28 2006, 10:08 AM, said:

Phil,

After 2CL cue-bid and pd bid 2S and 3H rebid, doubler's bid would tell if he has a monster hand or an ordinary hand. If he simply raised to 4H, that would tell an ordinary hand. If he bid something else, including rebid 3S, that would mean a monster hand.

Really?

1♣..

dbl - pass - 2♣
2♠.........3♥
3♠....

Are you sure this just doesn't show: QJxxx, Kxx, AQx, xx? Many of us would make a takeout double instead of a 1♠ overcall, since the hand is worth only one call.

[HeartA]

pclayton, on Nov 28 2006, 01:21 PM, said:

Really?

1♣..

dbl - pass - 2♣
2♠.........3♥
3♠....

Are you sure this just doesn't show: QJxxx, Kxx, AQx, xx? Many of us would make a takeout double instead of a 1♠ overcall, since the hand is worth only one call.

With this hand, dbl is OK, and it is OK to bid 2S (of course) over pd's 2C. But it is NOT OK to rebid S without support pd's hearts. 2C cue-bid could mean both majors and invitational strength. But after 2C-3H, it is clear that pd (responder) has a hand of hearts with gf strength. To rebid S is a crime, imo.

[cherdano]

pclayton, on Nov 28 2006, 08:21 PM, said:

HeartA, on Nov 28 2006, 10:08 AM, said:

Phil,

After 2CL cue-bid and pd bid 2S and 3H rebid, doubler's bid would tell if he has a monster hand or an ordinary hand.  If he simply raised to 4H, that would tell an ordinary hand.  If he bid something else, including rebid 3S, that would mean a monster hand.

Really?

1♣..

dbl - pass - 2♣
2♠.........3♥
3♠....

Are you sure this just doesn't show: QJxxx, Kxx, AQx, xx? Many of us would make a takeout double instead of a 1♠ overcall, since the hand is worth only one call.

Really? I think this would be a 80% vote in favor of 1♠.

Anyway, if you cue-bid, you at least tell partner your bid is based on some hcp. A direct 4H could be much weaker and more distributional.

[hatchett]

Quote

I think this would be a 80% vote in favor of 1♠.

only 80%?