[pbleighton]

Very basic questions:
1. Do they guarantee 8+ hcp, or can they be done with a bad hand with good shape?
2. Do they tend to deny a stopper in the opp's suit?
3. Do they guarantee at least 1 4cM? Over 2m, do they suggest both majors?
4. Does opener tend to show a 4cM as a rebid?
5. If no 4cM and no stopper, what then?
6. With a stopper and no 4cM, do you bid 2NT or 3NT, depending on your strength?
7. Do they apply after 2C, or do you play 1NT-2C-X as invitational Stayman, and use 1NT-2C-3C as GF Stayman?

Peter

[Robert]

Hi everyone

I play a non standard Big Club with a lot of treatments which are also non standard, so please take my replies as just being my version of bidding here.

1. I suggest 7+HCPs at IMPs and 6+ at MPs. Do not make promises that you cannot keep.

2. They neither promise or deny a stopper. You have more flexiblity 'with' a stopper, I sometimes make a TO double holding 3(4?) cards in their suit(and GF values) to gain more information, 'if' partner happens to pass 'here' there will be blood all over the table.

3. I do not promise a 4 card major, what would you bid with 3325 over a 2D bid?
Over a 2m bid, I imply 3+ cards in the other suits(I tend to have 443 'outside'
the TO doubled suit 'if' minimum.

4. If you 'do not' hold a 'trump stack', majors have priority in the bidding.

5. You bid a minor witjout a stopper or 4 cards in a major.

6. Yes! You should have a super max. to bid 3NT at MPs, the partner with shortness is supposed to take action.

7. Yes, however, with 0-1 clubs, you are allowed to bid 2C-3C as GF Stayman.

Regards,
Robert

[1eyedjack]

I just play double as take-out distribution and willingness to compete, with Lebensohl 2N rebid by opener if committing to 3 level. Strength of 1N opener is not relevant to me. Unless opponents bid again there will still be a cue bid of oppo suit available by responder, as NT probe. Of course oppo may well bid again, but that may scupper many other supposedly scientific methods on certain hand types.

[gwnn]

I would expect 1NT-2♣-X to be "clear-cut system on" Stayman only if 2♣ was artificial. Of course, opener will bid his 4 card majors usually anyhow.

[Codo]

1. I like to play them competetive and would expect no strength. Better hands would be bid by some Lebensohl sequences. But with a pick up, they should show about 8 and more HCPS.

2. As neg.double suggests shortness in opps suit, it often has no stopper and can bid NT in the rare case where he has. There are other possibilities, but this is easy.

3. Yes they guarantee at least 4/3 in the majors.

4. yes

5. If I have no stopper and no major, I will have the other minor. And I am from the camp, where X shows all suits.

6. If the double promises 8+, yes, else no.

7. I prefer to play X of 2 ♣ as stayman.

I play neg. double after1 NT, but more and more opps play Capp DONT and other tools, so it is a rare bird to use it.

[Free]

1. Do they guarantee 8+ hcp, or can they be done with a bad hand with good shape?
No, they can be just competitive. I guess you can start with 5+HCP, since it's at least 20-20.

2. Do they tend to deny a stopper in the opp's suit?
Yes, since they're for takeout. You have other tools to find or show stoppers with GF hands. Remember you'll not play 2NT after takeout doubles.

3. Do they guarantee at least 1 4cM? Over 2m, do they suggest both majors?
No, the way I play them, they show at least 2 suits. So after a minor overcall 66.67% of the time you have the remaining Major, after a minor overcall you have at least 1 Major.

4. Does opener tend to show a 4cM as a rebid?
No, since it's merely competitive. We also use scrambling 2NT for 2-suited hands.

5. If no 4cM and no stopper, what then?
2NT scrambling or bid a 5 card suit natural.

6. With a stopper and no 4cM, do you bid 2NT or 3NT, depending on your strength?
No you bid a suit (or scrambling 2NT), or pass for penalties. If partner is strong, he can still cuebid to ask for stoppers.

7. Do they apply after 2C, or do you play 1NT-2C-X as invitational Stayman, and use 1NT-2C-3C as GF Stayman?
I prefer to keep my structure after a natural 2♣ overcall, where Dbl is stolen bid. After 2♦ and higher bids I play takeout doubles. Opener can also double for takeout, but he needs tolerance for ALL remaining suits.

[FrancesHinden]

As ever, there is no one obvious answer, it's a matter of agreement between the partnership. All I can do here is tell you the way I play them where they have been discussed.

We have two agreements in particular which determine the answers to many of your questions:

i) Opener will pass the double on the majority of four-trump holdings (not usually on four low, but most hands with an honour and pretty much all hands with two honours).

ii) All balanced inv+ hands (without a 5-card major) start with a take-out double. Opener bids assuming responder has a minimumish shape-suitable hand, but it doesn't promise that. We use the lebensohl sequences for other purposes. (only exception is responder can just bid 3NT to play if he's not interested in the possibility of partner passing the double).

Thus:

1. Do they guarantee 8+ hcp, or can they be done with a bad hand with good shape?
Maybe 6+; tend to imply our side has the majority of the HCP. Obviously vulnerability and form of scoring is relevant. They tend to have either a doubleton in the suit doubled or good defence if a singleton. A good 3-suited hand with real shortage has to cue.

2. Do they tend to deny a stopper in the opp's suit?
Opener bids on the assumption that the take-out doubler has a low doubleton, but almost any balanced hand will start with a take-out double in case partner is going to pass it, and/or to find the 4-4 major suit fit. 1NT 2H x P 3C P 3NT will usually include a heart stop; responder could have cued on the second round without one.

3. Do they guarantee at least 1 4cM? Over 2m, do they suggest both majors?
Suggest but not guarantee. It's a function of both high cards and shape. You'd be happy doubling 2H with Kxx xx Kxxx Qxxx, but wouldn't usually bother doubling 2S with Qx xxx Kxxx Qxxx. If you have a strong hand you will often start with a double anyway.

4. Does opener tend to show a 4cM as a rebid?
At the 2-level, yes. We wouldn't open 4M5m hands 1NT so that's not an issue for us; with two 4-card suits neither of which can be bid at the 2-level opener will usually bid 2NT scramble to show 2 places to play.

5. If no 4cM and no stopper, what then?
Bid your 5/6-card minor or bid 2NT scramble.

6. With a stopper and no 4cM, do you bid 2NT or 3NT, depending on your strength?
No. Would either pass or bid a minor or bid 2NT scramble.

7. Do they apply after 2C, or do you play 1NT-2C-X as invitational Stayman, and use 1NT-2C-3C as GF Stayman?
For me they apply over any intervention, at any level, whether natural or artificial.

[1eyedjack]

FrancesHinden, on Nov 23 2006, 05:38 PM, said:

i) Opener will pass the double on the majority of four-trump holdings (not usually on four low, but most hands with an honour and pretty much all hands with two honours).

This is the killer, really. Simply having the balance of points, and one partner holding Honour to 4 sitting under the gun, is arguably not enough to justify doubling them into game at IMP. No problem at MP, I agree, but IMP?

I would tend to pull it especially if I have another suit. Perhaps I need to rethink that policy.

It doesn't stop me doubling on marginal values. You have to maximise the benefit of mixing it, especially to make up for the loss of the penalty double.

[neilp]

For me it depends very strongly on what the rest of your defense is. If you play Lebensohl/Rubensohl then you have to double with most invitational hands. This means that the double should show at least invitational values and says nothing about length in the majors or stoppers in the bid suit.

If 2NT is natural then it is possible to play double as slightly weaker but this comes with the risk as indicated above. Your defense had better be good......

[1eyedjack]

neilp, on Nov 25 2006, 06:10 PM, said:

For me it depends very strongly on what the rest of your defense is. If you play Lebensohl/Rubensohl then you have to double with most invitational hands. This means that the double should show at least invitational values and says nothing about length in  the majors or stoppers in the bid suit.

If 2NT is natural then it is possible to play double as slightly weaker but this comes with the risk as indicated above. Your defense had better be good......

If you play Lebensohl by opener in response to the double, you can embrace both invitational and weaker hands in the double. But of course at a cost, and the cost is the loss of the natural 2N bid by opener over the double when the hand is a misfit but you are in doubt about doubling them into game (the "killer" hand referenced above by Frances and me). Also if a direct seat 2N is natural and invitational it is not necessarily a safe bid to make on all invitational hands, ie with a guardless shortage in the opponent's suit. So its availability (if available) is not a panacea for denying a game try within the double.