[oldchris1]

Probably tilting at windmills here, but it seems to me that when a player conplains that he has made a wrong bid and wants an undo, he is giving his partner unauthorized information. Furthermore, if a player denies an undo, it turns the game into a bitter time, not a fun place.

I have had guys try a losing finesse into my hand, and when the finesse loses, they ask for an undo. Once, after a refused undo, the host told me privately I was a bad sport, and he would remove me after the hand was over. I told him I would save him the trouble and left immediately.

On BBO some tourneys forbid undos, while others allow them. The question here is, 'if undos are allowed, does that mean undos must be provided when requested, or is it an option of the opponent?'

Last night my LHO joking told us she was drinking wine -- she misbid and after a few seconds requested an undo. My partner silently passed. RHO then could save his pard, but passed also, then requested an undo. I laughed and passed. They were in the wrong contract (which happens to all of us from time to time) but refused to play the hand.

Our community was undergoing a violent thunderstorm, which knocked out our electricity for two hours, so I don't know what the final outcome was. My point here is that I firmlly believe an undo should not be allowed (as in tournament bridge), and if the opponents fail to play in the wrong contract (to get an AVE. score), then director should adjust to 4 or five down or whatever.

Oldchris1

[Walddk]

oldchris1, on Nov 6 2006, 01:32 PM, said:

The question here is, 'if undos are allowed, does that mean undos must be provided when requested, or is it an option of the opponent?'

No misunderstanding is possible when you have read these quotes from the Rules of this Site:

The only acceptable time to ask for an undo is when you have misclicked. If you make a poor bid or play or for any other reason, it is inappropriate to ask for an undo.

<snip>

All members have the right to reject an undo, redeal, or claim request for any reason. Members are not required to explain why they have rejected such a request and it is inappropriate for a player to be offended if one of his requests is rejected. If your undo, redeal, or claim is rejected and you do not want to play at the current table anymore, finish the current deal and send a polite chat message before leaving.

---

I allow undo's for "obvious" misclicks but not if a player changes his/her mind. However, it is not always easy to determine which is which. As far as I'm concerned, they can discard the undo button altogether (normal play), but we do need it for two purposes:

Mentors giving lessons.
Vugraph operators.

Roland

[amfnz]

This is difficult. While I empathise with the "no undo" type of approach, the Laws clearly allow you to correct an inadvertant bid.

I have less sympathy with an undo in playing the cards because one should take the same care one does when playing bridge face to face.

BBO at least does not allow you to revoke, so take care and play deliberately and the problem will be non existant.

[helene_t]

Maybe Golfacer wants to include something about this in the TD education program.

It's probably better to disallow undos in tourneys since it's quite difficult for a TD to assess whether the undo requester really misclicked or whether he was just temporarily absent-minded. For example, if you plan to finese against the king holding AQ and then drop the queen under the king because you failed to notice that the king was played, it does not qualify as a misclick. Yet many undo-requests are made for such reasons.

Also, it may be difficult for the TD to assess whether the rejection of an undo was made out of a genuine suspicion that it was not a misclick, or if the undo was rejected in order to take advantage of the misclick. And if the TD wants to make such assessments, it should be anounced since according to standard BBO rules, a player is never required to accept an undo.

And if the TD decides to make such assesments, what should be done when the TD thinks that the rejection was made out of a genuine disbelief in the misclick, yet the TD did believe in the misclick? Who has the bruden of proof?

[P_Marlowe]

oldchris1, on Nov 6 2006, 06:32 AM, said:

<snip>
I have had guys try a losing finesse into my hand, and when the finesse loses, they ask for an undo. Once, after a refused undo, the host told me privately I was a bad sport, and he would remove me after the hand was over. I told him I would save him the trouble and left immediately.
<snip>
Last night my LHO joking told us she was drinking wine -- she misbid and after a few seconds requested an undo. My partner silently passed. RHO then could save his pard, but passed also, then requested an undo. I laughed and passed. They were in the wrong contract (which happens to all of us from time to time) but refused to play the hand.
<snip>
Our community was undergoing a violent thunderstorm, which knocked out our electricity for two hours, so I don't know what the final outcome was. My point here is that I firmlly believe an undo should not be allowed (as in tournament bridge), and if the opponents fail to play in the wrong contract (to get an AVE. score), then director should adjust to 4 or five down or whatever.

Oldchris1

Hi,

First case: mark the player as enemies avoid playing
with them in the future.

Second case: The same, although I would like to ask you,
did you like the company, if yes, be nice.

The play in the main room is more social than in a
tournament, which means one should try to be friendly.

... I also like to drink a glass of wine, if playing
with friends. And playing with friends, I may request
an undo, and may take sometime until I realised the
problem.
Another solution would be to request a redeal, and it
is better it comes from your side and spontan.

The results coming from the main room meaningless,
repeat it, meaningless, if you take those results serious,
change the game.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[kenberg]

Probably "no undos" is the best policy. I ask only if it truly was a physical error, akin to pulling the wrong card from the bidding box. The other day pard inadvertently passed a blackwood response leaving me in 5D instead of 5S. Tough luck, it happens. Some requests for undos are clearly over the top, others more reasonable, but any border is apt to be subjective and lead to hard feelings. Better to just say no to all. Learning not to play with the mouse until you are ready to bid is not such a difficult task.

[GeeGee]

Just a personal thought.

I think the undo button is very useful, as it is so easy to misclick. However, I do take a different view in accepting undos depending on whether it is in bidding or play.

I take a far more tolerant approach to bidding undo requests than I do to play undo requests, because they are so often more obviously misclicks. In play, I just won't accept an undo without obvious justification.

That said, I do have a couple of people marked as enemies because they would not accept my partner's undo request.

I too have been known to play online not quite sober. I don't ask for undos, because all mistakes are mine, and I take responsibility for them.

Geoff

[jillybean]

For tournaments/team games and "serious play" we really need the option so a player who misbids can hit a button that halts the auction and calls the td. No undo's in play.

At a private table leave the decision up to the host.

jb

[MikeRJ]

Personaly I am happy to allow undos as it makes the game flow better. I get no pleasure defending silly contracts that result from misclicks. I have found "dubious" requests to be fairly rare, and I am prepared to give the player concerned the benefit of the doubt - at lest the first time.

[Trumpace]

In the Main Bridge Club, I usually always grant an undo during bidding. During the play I grant an undo only if the card I played is not the cause of the undo (which is clear most of the time) or if the undo request was very quick.

I don't understand why people are such sticklers to law in social situations (like some tables in MBC). Perhaps I should move to the "relaxed" club

[Rain]

I think this is the 2nd or 3rd time I've ranted against undoes.

I don't believe in undoes and have never requested one for myself. (I have accepted gratefully on 1 or 2 occasions when my table, usually comprising of friends, realised something is obviously wrong and offers an undo) I have also made it clear to my regular partners that I expect them not to ask for undoes as well, and just suck up the misclicks.

I occasionally grant undoes to my oppos when its an obvious misclick, but even on the best of occasions, cannot help but feel a little annoyed.

1) Misclicks -> Rare are the bids or cards that are obviously misclicks of the mouse. And in life bridge, even if you accidentally drops the wrong card its considered played. Would undoes be allowed then?

2) I have observed that people I play with often who also request undoes often don't do so out of malicious intent to cheat after playing a wrong card, but they were just not paying attention at all. To some extent this is insulting. Its like they are telling you by their actions they don't really give a damn about the game, and can't be bothered to click correctly.

3) Even if you don't grant undo request, the requester's partner frequently realises what happens and yes, UI is conveyed then.

[whereagles]

I could live without undos. I feel embarassed to ask for one anyway..

[keylime]

I'd like the option as a table host to have the UNDO button greyed out. However, I understand why it is there - with the way mouses are these days even I have had fat finger issues from time to time. This is why I use the big deal (one of the BEST things of BBO) option.

[DrTodd13]

I hate the UNDO because I feel like I am accusing someone of lying when I reject one undo but accept another. When I did accept undos, I thought about 20% were clear cut misclicks, about 50% were clearly an attempt to remedy a slip of the brain rather than a slip of the hand, with the other 30% being the gray middle area. The only policy that doesn't make me feel bad or allow cheaters to get away with murder is to disallow undos. I even think they should be disallowed in the f2f game. You should be paying attention and ridiculous results caused by carelessness is your incentive to pay attention.

[Oldchris]

Thanks to everyone who added his content to my question. Roland, you were most helpful in quoting the rules of the site. I should have known all that, but was unaware that the 'rules' existed.

As far as whether I liked the people, I certainly do. The opponenets were a Hornet's Nest director and her partner, a lady from Texas!!!. They may not care much for me, but that's the chance you take when you disagree with ladies.

And for putting someone on the enemies list, don't think that is a good idea. Heck, we even have tournament guidelines that say 'no enemies'. Besides, why have enemies over a card game?

Would say that the BBO forum was helpful in my first venture into it.

Chris

[Echognome]

I can't understand the intolerance shown here. I do feel however that UNDOs during the bidding should be treated much differently than UNDOs during the play.

In the bidding, you are allowed to correct indavertent bids. Has anyone not made a bid and realized that one of the cards was stuck onto another one and they just bid something they had no intention of bidding? In f2f play you encounter an insufficient bid about once every session or two as a TD. Of course, you can't make an insufficient bid on BBO, but you can easily misclick. So, especially if the undo request is immediate (it's very difficult to ascertain the law's wording of "no pause for thought") then I grant undo's happily during the bidding.

During the play the laws are quite different. If you drop a card accidentally while defending or revoke, you do suffer penalties. Declarer is given a bit more leeway on that matter, but not if he calls for the wrong card from dummy or plays to a trick too quickly from his hand. So there I am less inclined to give undos.

However, in most friendly games I will grant them anyways. If players are abusing the undo button, I simply stop playing with them. For example, during a team match I kibbed, one player opened 3♥, then asked for an undo (which was granted) and then said to the table "I changed my mind"! Now that, of course, is ridiculous and would never be allowed f2f. So there are certain abuses that occur. Just don't play with those people and allow those that have genuine problems the leeway to enjoy their game as well.

Imagine, for instance, that you were playing against someone that had severe arthritis and had trouble clicking the cards or bids. They try to click them in tempo as to avoid slowing down the game, but occasionally make mistakes. How would you now feel about not granting them an undo? Or alternatively that you did not give them an option of undos so as to put pressure on them to be careful and deliberate and slow down the game?

[brianshark]

One time after examining the movie of the previous board, I was clicking into the main client again when at that second it became my turn to bid, and the pass button suddenly appeared in the main client right where I was clicking! What misfortune! Misclicks will happen no matter what though.

I understand why people dislike having to reject dubious undos, but I don't remember ever being in such a situation myself. I just never reject them. I'm usually either playing in the main bridge club, where I don't care, or against friends in a friendly game, or playing against respectable intelligent opps who you can usually trust not to abuse the feature anyway. (The kind that play to better themselves rather than to win.)

I don't see why a minority of contrary people who reject every undo, and cheaters who abuse it frequently, should allow the rest of the us to not have that nice little feature, that most of us would be ashamed to misuse.

[pork rind]

im another who always allows undos whether in bidding or in play. if i decide someone is abusing this i simply mark them and dont play with or against them again. i know personally with some laptops with the little finger pads i simply cannot seem to always click at the right time. with a mouse i have no trouble.

to me bridge is always a friendly game. when it becomes otherwise i done want to play. i am fortunate that i am able to play in some pretty strong games

ultimately it is just a game folks. some of you seem to want to win at any costs. you always think someone is trying to cheat you. it must really be horrible to be like that. im amazed that you enjoy it at all.

just my opinion

[EricK]

If no bid or play could be made with a single click, then that would all but eliminate misclicks and hence the need for an Undo button.

eg You click on a bid in the bidding box part of the screen and then that bid appears by itself in the centre of the screen and you must click on that to actually make the bid or click on a Cancel button to go back to the bidding box.

[Codo]

HI Eric,

I disagree, because if you can "doubleclick" some will dfo so and you still have the problems.
And if you really have to click twice, you just produces millions of additional clicks for just a small gain.

And I see no problem in giving undos in bidding and play.

Maybe I will change my mind, if I play for big stakes of money or some national championships via BBO. But for a simple tournement or in the Main room? Why not grant undos? What will happen?

If you really once in a life meet a cheater, so what. You loose 12 or 20 imps at a board. My godness, where is the problem?