[jillybean]

hi<
After our first two Friday evening live games I need to check in.
We have just started playing in an ACBL open pairs game at our local club, though the competition is good we haven’t been totally out of our depth finishing about 2/3rds of the way down both times.

What has surprised us the most is the conduct of the players. Some are wonderful, welcoming, helpful and gracious when we make mistakes. Others have left us wondering why leave home to play at a club.

The first Friday we had to listen to obscenities from a man at an adjacent table before the game started, during the game he exploded, berated and swore at a woman for leading out of turn. I can tell you we were not looking forward to playing at his table.

The second night I paused for a long time after my partner opened 2S, during the pause one opps was making comments about what a good hand I must have.. I finally bid 3S and my p bid 4S. Now, the opp leans over so his face is 10inches away from my partner, grills him on our bidding, informs us that 99% of the players here play 3S as preemptive and tells him that he shouldn’t have bid over it. It was a very uncomfortable situation., yeah I should have called the TD.

Is this sort of thing common at competitive club games?

tyia
jb

[pbleighton]

"Is this sort of thing common at competitive club games?"

Pretty common, though most nights you shouldn't have as bad an experience as you described.

The extent of it varies by game and club, though. If this level of poor behavior continues, try to find another club game.

The behavior you describe is one reason (the other being my job) that I play less ftf bridge than I used to.

Peter

[blackshoe]

As anywhere, there are good and bad people at bridge clubs. Generally speaking, Peter has it right, though I would have a talk with the club manager/TD and explain your concerns. When players are loud or otherwise disturbing your game or interfering with your enjoyment, please call the TD and ask him to do something about it, even if the player is not at your table. If he does, you're ahead. If he doesn't, well, as Peter says, you should probably find another game. Likewise, if a player at your table is intimidating you or your partner, call the TD. That is the only way you'll get this player to stop.

[matmat]

that's one of the reasons i decided not to play acbl games anymore. seems to me that inappropriate behaviour is tolerated, especially for the regulars.

[Elianna]

matmat, on Oct 14 2006, 05:26 PM, said:

that's one of the reasons i decided not to play acbl games anymore. seems to me that inappropriate behaviour is tolerated, especially for the regulars.

I thought that it was because YOUR inappropriate behavior was not allowed.

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean2, on Oct 14 2006, 05:57 PM, said:

<snip>
What has surprised us the most is the conduct of the players. Some are wonderful, welcoming, helpful and gracious when we make mistakes. Others have left us wondering why leave home to play at a club.
<snip>

Reminds you at the people playing online?
You meet nice people, you meet idiots.
The only differences, you cant leave the
tournament as simple, as it woul be possible playing online,
where you can say, it was a connection issue.

You play face to face to meet people, if the people you meet are
worth it, go to the club, else stay home, or look fora different club.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jillybean]

I understand that there will be a similar mix of people at a club as there is online, what surprised me is that this behavior is acceptable in a club.

[badderzboy]

Hi Jilly,

It shouldn't be acceptable and there are laws to deal with it if the director sees fit - best option is to call the director otherwise they are getting away with gamesmanship

Some people pray on new peoples ignorance of the laws of the game and this is one part I personally would love to jump on when I direct if people would call when they should.

Otherwise best option is to just try and beat them to shut them up - tends to be my solution let our card play and defence do the talking lol

I play at 3 local clubs - one mixed ability circa 7 tables , one a mix of learners and experienced pairs about 11 tables and one where the ability is pretty good with 13/14 tables - guess where u could cut the air with a knife and guess where it's a pleasure to play with never a harsh word!!!

Steve

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean2, on Oct 15 2006, 09:40 AM, said:

I understand that there will be a similar mix of people at a club as there is online, what surprised me is that this behavior is acceptable in a club.

It is not.

The main problem, certain public clubs are content to
be closed groups, i.e. they do not really look for new
members.
For whatever resaon, e.g. the members of the club
like to receive masterpoint, they have to be public.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[helene_t]

jillybean2, on Oct 15 2006, 04:40 PM, said:

I understand that there will be a similar mix of people at a club as there is online, what surprised me is that this behavior is acceptable in a club.

The directors have a difficult job.

Where I play, there are playing TDs at the weekly club evening so they usually don't see what's going on except if they are called or if they happen to sit next to the table in question. And they have a bussy evening allready, playing and dirrecting at the same time.

They do not have the authority of police officers or kindergarden teachers. They are just members of the club like the rest of us. The fact that they know the rules slightly better than most of us may not give them the pondus (English word?) to tell people how to behave.

Allthough there are laws saying that players must behave themselves, it is not easy to say were to draw the line. It is not something we have ever discussed in the technical comitee or in the board of directors.

Part of the problem is that players come to the club evening with different motives:
- some want to chat about Christmas preparations, soccer etc devoting as little aatention as possible to bridge
- some want to post-mortem the hands, in theory in order to learn something
- some want to play by the rules so that the result of the club competion can be taken seriously.

It causes a lot of nuisance when other players use the evening for a different purpose than u think it should be used for: Someone plays a card out of turn. An opponent says it becomes a penalty card. The offender's partner says "don't be so strict, this is not the World Championships". There you go.

[blackshoe]

helene_t, on Oct 16 2006, 05:37 AM, said:

The directors have a difficult job.

Where I play, there are playing TDs at the weekly club evening so they usually don't see what's going on except if they are called or if they happen to sit next to the table in question. And they have a bussy evening allready, playing and dirrecting at the same time.

They do not have the authority of police officers or kindergarden teachers. They are just members of the club like the rest of us. The fact that they know the rules slightly better than most of us may not give them the pondus (English word?) to tell people how to behave.

Allthough there are laws saying that players must behave themselves, it is not easy to say were to draw the line. It is not something we have ever discussed in the technical comitee or in the board of directors.

Part of the problem is that players come to the club evening with different motives:
- some want to chat about Christmas preparations, soccer etc devoting as little aatention as possible to bridge
- some want to post-mortem the hands, in theory in order to learn something
- some want to play by the rules so that the result of the club competion can be taken seriously.

It causes a lot of nuisance when other players use the evening for a different purpose than u think it should be used for: Someone plays a card out of turn. An opponent says it becomes a penalty card. The offender's partner says "don't be so strict, this is not the World Championships". There you go.

Your club has to decide what it wants. If it's a relaxed attitude towards the rules of the game, then fine - but the TD needs to know. Every club should, IMO, have published conditions of contest covering this kind of thing. Sounds to me like your committee or BoD has some work to do!

The TD has the authority given him by the Laws to run the game in accordance with those Laws, and the responsibility to the Sponsoring Organization (your club) and to the players to do so to the best of his ability. Even if, as seems the case from your post, the TD is a volunteer or someone randomly picked for the evening, he or she is not "just a member of the club like the rest of us" when directing. She's the director, should act as such and should be treated as such.

Where to draw the line is a judgement call, and judgement comes from experience - and perhaps from the Conditions of Contest, i.e., guildance from the SO. To begin with, your TD has the judgement gained from life experience. If a behavior is considered rude or otherwise unacceptable in general society, it's probably unacceptable at the bridge table, too. There is some guidance in the proprieties, as well. See chapter six of the laws.

Chatting is fine - as long as it doesn't disrupt the game. Discussing hands, same criterion. I would think that playing by the rules is de rigeur but maybe that's just me. If the club wants to relax the rules, okay - but as I said above, you should make it explicit that you're doing so.

Actually, having some nights where the rules are fully enforced, and some where they're relaxed might not be a bad idea. Or some nights where you play duplicate and some rubber bridge, as the latter tends to be more relaxed anyway - unless it's a serious money game.

Whatever you decide, players should not be making their own rulings at the table. That's why you have a TD. Call him and let him do his job. BTW, the "ruling" in your example is wrong. There's a lot more to a POOT than just "it's a penalty card". My point being that when players do make their own rulings, they rarely get it right.

If your National Bridge Organization has a TD course available, it might help if your club paid for it to get a couple of volunteers with more than a passing acquaintance with both the laws and the mechanics of running a game.

[inquiry]

Any idea why the ACBL came up with a Zero Tolerance policy? It was because of experiences like this. Any idea why club owners allow it to continue? Obnoxious butt heads are often some of their best customers. In the long run, kicking them out until they learn how to behave is better, because their actions turn off others who otherwise might come back and play.

Sadly, it is all too common. I went to Crystal city in VA to play once with a pick up partner who then threatened to take an opponent outside and "whip his ass" while we were playing. Needless to say, the director did nothing but tell my pick up partner hs shouldn't say such things. I haven't been back to that club since.

[helene_t]

blackshoe, on Oct 16 2006, 04:08 PM, said:

Your club has to decide what it wants. If it's a relaxed attitude towards the rules of the game, then fine - but the TD needs to know. Every club should, IMO, have published conditions of contest covering this kind of thing. Sounds to me like your committee or BoD has some work to do!
[....]
Actually, having some nights where the rules are fully enforced, and some where they're relaxed might not be a bad idea. Or some nights where you play duplicate and some rubber bridge, as the latter tends to be more relaxed anyway - unless it's a serious money game.

I agree, but it's quite difficult in practice. We have something in the Netherlands called "gedogenbeleid" which means that civil servants are not expected to enforce the law unless necesary. Also, Ben mentions the role of the "Club owner", but most clubs do not have an owner. Rather, they are democratic associations, meaning that when there is a nasty problem everybody looks the other way and hopes for someone else to deal with the obnoxious butt head.

As for your suggestion of making different club evenings for serious and non-serious bridge I think it's a very good idea. At the badminton club, we have two kinds of evenings: training evenings and internal competition. I don't know why bridge clubs have internal competition all the time. Maybe because players want to collect as many masterpoints as possible?

[keylime]

I agree with Ben - it is an unfortunate occurrance I see too often in club bridge. This is the major reason that I have shied away from it; I have had to deal with the bias and sometimes prejudicial nature of people due to my lack of age (for the record only 30).

Will give you a true story about this, and how it handled:

I was playing a club game a few years ago in Lawton, OK. After driving the 75 minutes down from Oklahoma City pard and I walk in. We sit down to play and in the 4th/5th round a pair comes into us. We announce that we are playing split NT ranges and a forcing club; the LHO, who was a lady, smiled and sat...her pard tho, RHO, says..."no one plays that anymore, that's over 30 years old, you can't win with that!". So we start the 1st board of 4; it was a 10-12 NT that stole the pot because pard bids 2C (nf stayman) and gets us into our 2H partial down 2 for -100, versus their cold 3NT vulnerable. Board 2, a 15 bid slam to six of a minor, making, only ones in room. Board 3, steal a hand for 3C via 2C-2NT (forces 3C, to play or GF 2 suiter without clubs), down 1, -100 against their 4M game. Board 4, double them in 3C over our 2D opening (3 suiter short in diamonds - opener and I had 8 clubs between us).

So, 4 tops, and we do not say a word. We go on to a 68-69% game. Pard and I were pleased at the effort; we left one trick on a hand and that was it. We exit the club and the guy in question and his pard were shaking their heads at their 38% score. I look at the guy and say, "I guess that 30+ year old system that's older than I am lucked out on every board, did it?". That earned a very well deserved laugh all the way home.

Beaner, my counsel to you is two-fold:

1. Speak privately with the director and state nicely, yet firmly, that hearing profanity at a bridge club is not what you term "ideal entertainment".
2. Overcome bad, with good. Smile, be cheery, and most importantly, call the director politely when something irregular happens.

[jillybean]

Happy ending, the club manager(owner) called me during the week so I was able to discuss with him what had happened, the player did get a warning after we had left. We played again last night and a few people came up and said how happy they were to see us back and told us of some players well known for their rudeness and we should just ignore them.

We had very nice evening and even some great hands, if this happens again I’ll just push my chair back and call the TD.

Hoping to play in a rookie/master game this Wednesday.

jb

[Al_U_Card]

You can't change anyone, you can only change yourself. I like to play against the "jerks" as I know that they will do poorly versus a calm and harmonious partnership. These people have such prodigious personal problems that no amount of bridge acumen can justify their actions. Poise and grace make for a more enjoyable game. Make sure that the changes you bring to your game are the right ones for the right reasons. Allow others their own adventures.

[ClareB]

I play in England and I am interested in what you were saying about conduct, as a novice player it does vary. I have started to play in clubs as I do not have a regular partner and needed more experience. The best club I have played at is one that my teacher introduced me to as they have gone out of their way to help a beginner. I enjoy playing bridge and do not mind coming last if I have a good game but it cannot be enjoable to these people who behave as you describe. they seem to have lost the plot.

[pclayton]

There is an irony here.

If you discuss playing on-line with a typical 'club regular' (200 to 700 MPs, senior citizen; and if they have their LM, they obtained their golds in the bracketed KO's), their reaction will be very common to what a lot of on-line players think of club players;

"I joined a table, my partner was rude and left"

"My partner complained about my bidding, carding, line of play, etc.."

".....and I'm never GOING BACK".

The difference is one of familiarity and culture. As on-line players, we are more tolerant of things that others aren't tolerant of. If one of us has a partner leave, we get ticked off, but we just find another partner and go on with life.

The same is true of club players..."Oh that George used to be such a great player in his day, but he's so ornery because of his gout, and deaf right ear, but we love him anyway".

Never mind the fact that George is a walking poster child for ZT.

[jillybean]

To continue if anyone is interested…

I did below average at the rookie/master game , thanks mainly to my inattention of my partners signaling – a lot of distractions at r/l bridge! The lady I was paired up with asked me to partner her in a weekly game at another club – she is 88 and very sharp. I'm looking forward to some live games very much.

jb

[keylime]

Beaner,

I am encouraged by this, and hope to hear more of your adventures at the club.

I vote for the Blog of Beaner. Of course, this can't infringe upon hubby and daughter time tho!