[the hog]

The following is a hand from last night:
Red vs Green

(P) P (3H) ?

AKQT9x
x
AQx
Axx

You have 2 logical actions - X and 4S
Which do you choose and why?

Would your action be any different at differing vulnerability? (- the vul here makes a 5H or even 6H bid by leftie very appealing)

If you chose to X, what differing hands would you want to hold for X followed by a S bid, as opposed to an immediate 4S bid?

[hrothgar]

Please count me in for 4S

Partner had the opportunity to open 2D or 3C and didn't.
I'm willing to give up on a scientific auction to 6m.

As you note, too much chance that LHO will bounce the bidding to 5H following a double.

[Codo]

4 Spade, this is a strong jump.
Pd is allowed to carry on with xxx,xx,KJxx,KQxx, but of course he won´t.  ;D

Kind Regards

Roland

[inquiry]

This is a very non-trivial problem.

First, of course, we all know that 4S is not preemptive even if you play preemptive jumps overcalls, as you do not preempt against preempts. And you have plenty more than enough for a 4S bid (the value bid). In fact, the problem is you may have too much value as Roland points out when partner with the right stuff passes.

The first goal, however, is to reach game and 4S surely takes care of that mission. However, given the vulnerability, you can indeed expect a likely 5H sacrafice anytime Lefty has a heart fit. So the second goal is to be in a position to make the most informed decision you can make over their bid. There are two ways this 5H bid might come into play

(P)-P-(3H)-4S-(5H)  
or
(P)-P-(3H)-X-(5H)  

If Lefty is so obliging to bid only 4H over double, you have no real problem, you then can bid 4S over 4H when passed back to you to show this monster. But over x-5H, you really would like some guidence from partner over what to bid.

I think you are going to be put into an ackward position in the second auction if partner doubles 5H, because he doesn't know about your extra values and excellent spade suit. Will you really pass and risk catching partner with a hand like Roland showed? Or will you bid 5S/6S and catch partner with JT9x and a singleton spade and the club K?  

My initial thoughts were that Dbl and then 4S was best, but upon further consideration, I have changed my mind. The best bid to make the next round of bidding easy is an immediate 4S bid. Now if they bid 5H, a forcing pass from partner (or 5S) will encourage you to bid on, and a wack of 5H will be easier to pass after you have described your hand.  
I

[Rado]

Hi all,
Interesting example given. I want to ask all 4S bidders what will they prefer with same hand but 1 minor Ace less? I think then 4S is the normal bid, while with this monster DBL is more flexible. They are correct that posibble direct 5H bid after DBL may cause problems, but in real life such jumps are not so frequent. On the other hand our P may have as little as KJxxx in D when we have cold 6D and 6S.
My general advise is that leaping to game after opps preempt to show very good 6+cards and not so much outside (about A+K outside when AKQ in the suit or a little bit more when suit is weaker). Of course all above must be discussed with regular P and to accept a common principle.
Best regards, Rado

[Codo]

Hi Rado,

for your question:

I would bid 3 Spade with
AKQT9x
x
Qxx
Axx

This does not cause me any harm. In my view a direct bid after a preempt from rho shows a good opening. Exactly what I have.

With 4 Spade in red against white and a passed part I show a small monster. At least I thought so, because in my world I would.  With X and 4 or 5 spade, I would have
AKQJxx,x,AQx,AK

With the given hand, I need a lot more from pd:
I have 1 heart, 1,5 Diamond and 2 Club loosers, not yet a fit and maybe even a spade looser.

So with about 5 loosers a jump to game seems to be enough in my view.
Pd needs two tricks or a fit and 1 trick for the game to make. He needs 3- 4 tricks for the slam. That is a lot for a passed partner.

Kind Regards

Roland

[inquiry]

Quote

Hi all,
Interesting example given. I want to ask all 4S bidders what will they prefer with same hand but 1 minor Ace less? I think then 4S is the normal bid, while with this monster DBL is more flexible. They are correct that posibble direct 5H bid after DBL may cause problems, but in real life such jumps are not so frequent. On the other hand our P may have as little as KJxxx in D when we have cold 6D and 6S.
My general advise is that leaping to game after opps preempt to show very good 6+cards and not so much outside (about A+K outside when AKQ in the suit or a little bit more when suit is weaker). Of course all above must be discussed with regular P and to accept a common principle.
Best regards, Rado

First, I don't mean this to disagree with you. As you can see from my answer, I am of two minds about what to bid.  

Of course, you are right, you might miss a slam with a 4S bid, that is a risk you take. If they bid on over 4S, you or your partner can use a forcing pass to attempt to get to six. If you double and they bid 5H, however, will your partner really and truly bid 6D with KJxxx?  This must be an advantage of being a gold star... good, insightful partners will play with you.  :

But if partner has just KJxxx of diamonds and it goes 3H-X-P-4D are you going to blast to 6D? If you bid 4S, will partner know about all the extra values?

My initial reaction was to double, but then I started thinking about why the problem was posed. Any simple auction...

3H-x-P-3N-P-4S

3H-x-P-4D-P-4S  (some question, does this show S-C two suiter?)

3H-x-4H-P-P-4S

where easy enough. But I like to involve partner in bidding decisions. If I double and they bid 5H, I think we are on very shaky grounds as to how to continue as I haven't come close to describing my hand.  So I made a bid I normally don't make (at any other vul, I double with this hand). But then after all, this is why people preempt, to give us difficult to solve problems.  

[luis]

While it is true that you don't preempt over preempts we would have bid 4s over 3h on
KQJTxxx, x, KQxx, x for example. So 4s IMHO is a hand without slam interest. 3s is constructive and non-forcing. So in my methods I must double. If they bid 5h I'm willing to risk 5s

[the hog]

Some interesting thoughts so far. Thanks to those who responded. My reason for posing the problem  has particularly to do with the vulnerability on the hand. I did not want to have to cope with a 5H bid on my left. Hence the question as to whether your actions would be different at different vulnerability.

NV vs vul, I would double with this hand, for example.

Anyway as to the result:

(P)  P  (3H)  4S
(P)  4NT

Pd surprises you with B'wood  - after your 5C (0-4) response he bids 6D - asking bid in D. 6H = none, 6S = Q,
So you bid 6S and he raises to 7S. Pd's hand?

xxxxx
Ax
KTxxx
x

A common auction at many tables was (3H) X 5 or 6H 6S
Missing the grand. Lefty, a very strong player,was not prepared to bid 5H over 5S at the risk of pushing us into 6S.

"My initial thoughts were that Dbl and then 4S was best"

I was also going to X first, but had the same concerns as Ben and thus bid 4S. While I certainly respect Rado's opinion, I think it is the vul here that maybe pushes you into a non optimum action. Perhaps I should also have posed the question "Does it matter who your left hand opponent is?"

One last thing to think about while you are pondering the previous questions:

(P)    P   (3H)   4S
(5H) 6D

What is 6D? Fit non jump? Has to agree S surely, but would you now bid 7S? I guess so, (answering his own question).

[inquiry]

Quote

,,,,,,
A common auction at many tables was (3H) X 5 or 6H 6S
Missing the grand. Lefty, a very strong player,was not prepared to bid 5H over 5S at the risk of pushing us into 6S.

"My initial thoughts were that Dbl and then 4S was best"

I was also going to X first, but had the same concerns as Ben and thus bid 4S. While I certainly respect Rado's opinion, I think it is the vul here that maybe pushes you into a non optimum action. Perhaps I should also have posed the question "Does it matter who your left hand opponent is?"

One last thing to think about while you are pondering the previous questions:

Hey, when The_hog and I agree it has to be right.... so regardless what other say, 4SPADES vul versus not vul just must be correct.  

Next to address the questions raise by The_hog's last post.

1) Does it matter who your left hand opponent is? Sure, if a 5H or 6H bid over 3Hx would not occur to your left hand opponent, there is no reason not to bid normally with a double, followed by 4S.

2) On the following auction what is 6D, a fit jump? Would you bid 7S?

(P)    P   (3H)   4S
(5H) 6D

Over 5H, 6D is not a "fit jump", but only because no jump was involved.    It has to be a fit non jump. Now, would I bid 7S? Actually with a good partner, no. While it seems unlikley that partner would bid 6D, inviting 7S, on an aceless hand, but you set up an auction with 4S that allow partner to explorer grand slam more scienticially.  Over 6D you could bid  6H, but would  that be interpreted as Josephine or an asking bid for a heart control?

I think, however, if partner had the magic hand, something like.....

xxx   Ax  KJxxxx  Kx,

Wouldn't he make a forcing pass, and then pull to 6D's  over double or bid 6H if you showed an offensive hand with a 5S after the forcing pass? Isn't this exactly why you bid 4S in the first place to make it easier to bid on in highly competitive auctions. Pass and pull being "stronger" than bidding on initially (at least the way I play), I think I would settle for 6S or maybe 6H over the immediate 6D bid. After all, partner could show first round heart control through the forcing pass we so clevely set up with out jump to 4S vulnerable.

Ben

[the hog]

"Over 5H, 6D is not a "fit jump", but only because no jump was involved.    It has to be a fit non jump. "

Actually I did say a fit non jump in my post Ben.

"Wouldn't he make a forcing pass, and then pull to 6D's? Over double or bid 6H if you bid 5S after the forcing pass? "
Probably, pd actually said he was contemplating the latter course of action


"Hey, when The_hog and I agree it has to be right.... so regardless what other say, 4SPADES vul must be correct."

lol

Re lho. A bid of 5-6H certainly did occur to him, - he held
x
KTxx
Txx
KQJxx
however he felt, (hoped), that a pass was more likely to be passed out and that any H raise would simply push us to slam. In retrospect, if he had bid 6H we would almost certainly only have bid the small slam . He was a bit unlucky on this board I guess.