[ArcLight]

1♥ - 1♠
2♣ - 3♣


What does Responders hand show?

-10-11 points?

- 6+ points

- at least 8 good points?


I was reading "The Bidders Bible" by Frank Stewart and he said traditionally the 3♣ bid shoewed 10-11 points. I wasn't aware of that, I thought it was more judgment oriented.

[whereagles]

It is judgement oriented.

Axxx
x
xxxx
Kxxx

is more than enough for it.

[Al_U_Card]

What usually sounds like an invite, is an invite. Whatever you have, if pard has a minimum for his 1H 2C rebid (11 hcp 5H 4C) will you be happy in 3C? And if he has a nice 13 count will you be happy in 5C or more likely 3NT? Just imagine the possibilities.....

[awm]

It's invitational and not forcing. Usually this means something like a good 9 to a bad 12. However, with five card club support there are a number of hands where you would make a courtesy raise holding substantially fewer values. The raise basically tells partner: if you have your typical 11-14 please pass, but if you hold more like 15 to a bad 18 please take another call (with a good 18 up partner would've jump rebid 3♣ at second turn).

I don't really think Whereagles' hand is enough; I would not want to be in game with that hand opposite most 15-18 pointers we could construct for partner. Note that this sort of sequence is one of those where playing a strong club system or gazilli/riton can help.

[cherdano]

awm, on Sep 18 2006, 09:32 PM, said:

I don't really think Whereagles' hand is enough;

Whereas I really don't think Whereagles' hand is enough

Quote

Note that this sort of sequence is one of those where playing a strong club system or gazilli/riton can help.

I am not sure gazilli/riton helps much in THIS sequence. Probably partner can show 15-18 with 5+H, 4+C at the level of 3 clubs, and you still have to decide whether you want to be in game opposite that. I think it helps more with non-club suits.

Arend

[HeartA]

invitational or semi-preemptive.

[pclayton]

HeartA, on Sep 18 2006, 03:45 PM, said:

invitational or semi-preemptive.

A-greed.

This sequence can show 2 big cards, shortness and 5 card support.

Since 2♣ can be somewhat temporizing; strive to keep the bidding open if you have an excuse.

Whereagles hand is lite, but not by a whole lot.

[flytoox]

Perhaps the right discription is "forward going". If pd has extra, the responder will cooperate. I would say 3C shows about good 8-10 hcps.

A related question is whether 2D(4th suit) is gf or F1 only. If it is F1 only, then 3C should not show more than 10hcp.

[helene_t]

It is slighly less encouraging than 2NT. Expressed in HCPs it's 8-9 whereas 2NT would be 10-11. The logic behind this is that with 8-9 and no clubs fit you can usually bid 2♥. Besides, with 10-11 points you are more likely to want to declare and to have a diamond stopper.

This leaves a gap with 10-11, club support and no diamond stopper. You may bid 4♣ with a very distributional hand (if your understanding is that this in NF), or you may overbid with 2♦ (for some this is not GF so not and overbid) or underbid with 3♣.

It goes with out saying that HCPs should read "HCPs" according to your judgement.

[1eyedjack]

It helps to understand the meaning of 1H-1S-3C. This sequence defines the upper limit of a 2C rebid. A 3C rebid is forcing, but partnerships can still differ on its minimum requirements.

My experience is that there has been a trend over the decades toward a stronger minimum limit to a 3C rebid, under which circumstances the requirements of a "courtesy" raise of 2C has also crept up, to protect against a maximum opener.

[SoTired]

This sequence illustrates one of the holes in SAYC and 2/1. Opener's 2C rebid is very wide, from min opener to just short of 3C GF jump-shift - about 11-17 HCP. This makes responder's 3C wide, also.

Because of this, as responder, I don't preemptively raise 2C with a weak hand and 5c. I think 3C shows game interest. Otherwise, opener with a sound 15 will be lost when responder bids 3C.

I play 4C GF, but it might make more sense to play it preemptive since 4SF + club raise says the same thing.

[whereagles]

SoTired, on Sep 19 2006, 12:51 PM, said:

I play 4C GF, but it might make more sense to play it preemptive since 4SF + club raise says the same thing.

Preemptive? Against what? Opps had 3 chances to bid already but kept quiet

[HeartA]

whereagles, on Sep 19 2006, 08:06 AM, said:

Preemptive? Against what? Opps had 3 chances to bid already but kept quiet

Well, once you stop at 2C, they will get in.

[whereagles]

Well, balancing an auction of type

1x 1y
2z pass

is just about the riskiest thing out there. But you're right that some might do it.

[jvage]

As has already been mentioned the answer depends on what is needed for opener to jump to 3♣. Traditionally this could be done with only 5-4 in hearts/clubs and 16 HP (maybe even weaker?). AFAIK Frank Stewart (mentioned in the original post) got a traditional style, which explains why he thinks responders raise should be relatively strong (10-11). When opener is limited it makes sense to use responders raise as constructive.

The modern tendency is to require stronger hands for a jump to 3♣. Some use this as gameforcing, some (including Helness - Helgemo AFAIK) use this as GF AND at least 5-5 in hearts/clubs. Since 2♣ then becomes semiforcing some responding hands that were earlier passed should now keep the bidding open (pass shows a misfitting minimum). Playing this style Whereagles 7 count is an OK minimum raise, since partner could have up to about 18hp (maybe even stronger, depending on wether 3NT or other rebids are available with stronger hands). An alternative is to give false preference to 2♥, but that got other downsides.

John

[kenberg]

My guess is that very few casual partnerships are on the same wavelength here. The higher up you push the minimum for the raise to 3C, the greater the chance of missing game after 1H-1S-2C-pass. Still, I have seldom had this actually happen. Perhaps it's profitable to ask "When should opener move over the 3C raise?" Opener could easily have a nt count since he presumably would open 1H with a 2-5-2-4 distribution even if with count in the nt range So you could decide opener will move with a good 15 (or a count of your preference), or maybe fewer hcps if greater shape, and responder should keep that in mind when deciding whether to pass or raise.

I guess you could decide that even a 2-5-2-4 hand with nt count is opened 1NT, although I'm not ready for that. If you did, then after 1H-1S-2C responder could know that opener is weak (and would pass 3C), or very strong (great), or quite distributional (so 3C may work fine even if not all that strong).

[SoTired]

So you want to further widen the 2C rebid (by restricting the hands that bid 3C), widen the 3C raise, and you don't want to miss game? Opener with a min or max knows what to do. But what if opener has, say:

x Axxxx AKx Hxxx where H is A, K or Q?

If responder is anywhere from A)Kxxx Kx xx Jxxxx to B)AKxx Kx xx Jxxxx, opener has a difficult guess. If opener bids 3N and responder has hand A, should responder pass or bid 4C? If opener makes a game try of 3D, how strong should responder be to accept? Is C)KQxx Kx xx Jxxxx good enuf?

[kenberg]

jvage, on Sep 20 2006, 08:51 AM, said:

As has already been mentioned the answer depends on what is needed for opener to jump to 3♣. Traditionally this could be done with only 5-4 in hearts/clubs and 16 HP (maybe even weaker?). AFAIK Frank Stewart (mentioned in the original post) got a traditional style, which explains why he thinks responders raise should be relatively strong (10-11). When opener is limited it makes sense to use responders raise as constructive.

The modern tendency is to require stronger hands for a jump to 3♣. Some use this as gameforcing, some (including Helness - Helgemo AFAIK) use this as GF AND at least 5-5 in hearts/clubs. Since 2♣ then becomes semiforcing some responding hands that were earlier passed should now keep the bidding open (pass shows a misfitting minimum). Playing this style Whereagles 7 count is an OK minimum raise, since partner could have up to about 18hp (maybe even stronger, depending on wether 3NT or other rebids are available with stronger hands). An alternative is to give false preference to 2♥, but that got other downsides.

John

I am unaware of this tradition. I can see why it might fade away:

Opener bids 1H

Responder bids 1S on
AQxx
xx
xxxx
xxx

Opener rebids 3C on a possible 16 count, 5-4 in hearts and clubs.

Responder does what?

I get dealt more lower end hands than upper end hands so I expect this situation to be frequently be the case when this auction occurs. Maybe I'll be lucky and hold the Jack of diamonds. If you think this responding hand should bid 1NT instead of 1S, change a club spot to be another spade spot.

I can't imagine pawing around for a possibly non-existent fit at the 3 level on 22 hcps. Sometimes you get stuck having to do so, but I wouldn't set up a system that encourages it.

After 1H-1S-3C it will be very difficult to get out intelligently below 3NT. I think you need more than 16.

At any rate, I know of no such traditional meaning, but perhaps I am about to learn something. It's happened before.