[flytoox]

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You may still have remembered the hand I played with you and misho.

Both vul. East dealer

Four hands:
S: K52
H: J5432
D: 3
C: QT83
S: AT86 S: J743
H: T H: 98
D: 108642 D: AQJ9
C: A72 C: KJ6
S: Q9
H: AKQ76
D: K75
C: 954

W N E S
1D 1H
X 4H P(?) P
5D ALL PASS

5D down 1 while 4s is makeable from East. You may say my 5d is bit overbid (which i have to agree facing down 1 while 4hx will down 2) but I believe choosing to dbl first is correct.

Yes, I remember the hand, I was South and overcalled 1H and Misho leaped to 4H. I hope your point is not that 4S by EAST makes while 4H by WEST is down on a diamond lead where West can no longer play Spade in a safe way due to south giving West a diamond ruff. That is too close to figure out during the auction.

I think the right bid with west is 1S (not 2D, not DBL), but you had a chance to get back into the driver seat. Over 4S when the bidding comes back to you, simply doulbe again. If your partner runs to 5C you correct to 5D, if he bids 4S, you pass, if he bids 5D you pass, and if he passes 4Hx, that is ok with you too. A second takeout double in a suit you doubled before is still takeout.

4H is typical Misho... pressure bidding, all the time, everytime. :-)

I prefer 1s shows 5 card while dbl promise 4card. i like 4H, but it is quite natural here, you may even make it.

[luke warm]

i might bid 1s rather than x if i had 4 to the KQ, AQ, or some such concentration, but i have to admit i hate to lose the distinction that can be made between a double and bid at this level

be that as it may, i think ben's idea of another x is right on, given that misho forced you and given that your partner's pass kinda put you under the gun.. i'm not sure it's a forcing pass (unless your original double made it so), but i think double preserves all options.. pard heard your neg double, he might want to defend... he might not...

i think i'd give him a shot, since 5d kinda takes all choice outta his hands.. seems a tad unilateral

[the hog]

I'm a bit late here with my response, but I bid 1N.

Just a couple of further points. The way I play, pd does NOT have 4S so we are playing a 3-3 fit at best, does no one else here play this? My pd's X shows minor suit cards.
Playing Polish Club, this is a 1C opening. I agree if playing Standard that you should open 1D. Based on the fact that the X denies 4S, a bid of 2C or 2D is also not unreasonable. I still prefer 1N though.

[inquiry]

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what do you bid after Opp's 1H with this?

S; KQXX
H: XX
D: AJXXX
C: XX

Wont you dbl?

With partners who follow Robson/Segal ideas I would bid 1S over 1H. With other players, I would double. But once partner bid 1NT, weak hand, balanced, I am not jumping to 3NT. I will rebid 2D or at imps, vul, maybe a non-forcing 3D. That is is. Where you going with your 10 hcp against a weak partner who rebids 1NT?

Not that it will convince anyone, but here is a hand from the semi-finals of the bermuda bowl, norway versus italy to show how this scheme of negative doubles at the one level deny higher four card suit...

Bd: 17
Dlr: North
Vul: None
North
S 976
H K85
D J92
C J842

West East
S K82  S AT43
H T96  H 32
D KQT76  D 83
C 96  C AKQT5

South
S QJ5
H AQJ74
D A54
C 73


Open Room:

West  North  East  South
Helgemo  Lauria  Helness  Versace
       
 PASS   1C   1H  
DBL   2H  PASS  PASS  
2S  PASS   3C  PASS  
3D  PASS  PASS  PASS

Here Helgemo made a double WITHOUT four spades. His partner with four spades passed two hearts, and then when Helgemo bid 2S his partner, with 4 spades "pulled" to 3C knowing that they lacked a 4-4 fit. The three diamond contract that was bid was made.

Ben

[flytoox]

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i might bid 1s rather than x if i had 4 to the KQ, AQ, or some such concentration, but i have to admit i hate to lose the distinction that can be made between a double and bid at this level

be that as it may, i think ben's idea of another x is right on, given that misho forced you and given that your partner's pass kinda put you under the gun.. i'm not sure it's a forcing pass (unless your original double made it so), but i think double preserves all options.. pard heard your neg double, he might want to defend... he might not...

i think i'd give him a shot, since 5d kinda takes all choice outta his hands.. seems a tad unilateral

yes, i agree. Dbl keeps all options open.

[mikestar]

I don't know who invented it but there is a good LOTT-based agreement for negative doubles of 1HE: X shows 4 spades, 1SP shows 5+. After X, opener's 1SP shows exactly 3 (alertable), opener bids 2SP with 4. With this agreement in place, 1SP becomes a no-brainer for this hand.

I think 1SP is a resonable choice without this agreement if X promises 4 spades, but 3-3 fits make me too nervous. I risk 1NT if X only shows 3 spades.

Let me clarify: opener bids 2SP with 4 spades and the values for a single raise if responder had bid 1SP in an uncontested auction. With more values than this, opener bids 3S, 4S, splinters, etc.

BTW, in one of his early K/S books, Kaplan says that 1SP over the negative double of 1HE is a subminimum hand in either values or support. With a bonafide single raise and 4 trumps, jump to 2SP.

[Turbin]

You pick up this hand...

A9x
xxx
kq109
Axx
1st seat you open 1 diamond LHO bids 1h your partner doubles... back to you?

REPLY: I agree with Louis and The Hog: 1NT. And, if my partner should go to 3NT without H stop, and without asking me about that stop, e.g. bidding 2H, sure I'll change the partner.
About the 1S rebidding: before to do this, I would verify the Helsinki Declaration (Ethical Principles for Medical Research Involving Human Subjects).
Paolo

[luis]

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You pick up this hand...

A9x
xxx
kq109
Axx
1st seat you open 1 diamond LHO bids 1h your partner doubles... back to you?

REPLY: I agree with Louis and The Hog: 1NT. And, if my partner should go to 3NT without H stop, and without asking me about that stop, e.g. bidding 2H, sure I'll change the partner.
About the 1S rebidding: before to do this, I would verify the Helsinki Declaration (Ethical Principles for Medical Research Involving Human Subjects).
Paolo

Paolo, with your permission I'll ask some of my pds about the Helsinki Declaration. I loved that quote! :-)

[inquiry]

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I don't know who invented it but there is a good LOTT-based agreement for negative doubles of 1HE: X shows 4 spades, 1SP shows 5+. After X, opener's 1SP shows exactly 3 (alertable), opener bids 2SP with 4. With this agreement in place, 1SP becomes a no-brainer for this hand.

I think 1SP is a resonable choice without this agreement if X promises 4 spades, but 3-3 fits make me too nervous. I risk 1NT if X only shows 3 spades.

You have to look long and hard to find a more devoted follower of LOTT than I. However, I don't like this particular scheme. For one thing, now you base the jump to 2S on four cards, not extra values, where

1C (1H) DBL (Pass)
2S

Can be bid with either....
xxxx KJx QJx AQxx or AQJT x Axx KJxxx

Some how, I think the constructive bidding trying to separate these hands while staying at a safe level will be just too tuff. I prefer to keep the jump as extra values, and as I noted earlier, I like the dbl of 1H to deny as many as 4S's on this auction (but 1C-(1S)-DBL promises 4+ hearts).

Ben

[bglover]

Ben's post brings up a question I have for how people treat 1m p 1x 2M.

Today I picked up this hand:

AKQ10
kx
AKxxx
xx

With some partners i would rebid 2s over whatever he bids after 1 diamond, with others i rebid 1 spade and hope partner doesn't pass. I know most partner's styles well enough to know who will take a 2S bid as a suit and who will take it as points.

How do you (everyone) handle this?

[luis]

Quote

Ben's post brings up a question I have for how people treat 1m p 1x 2M.

Today I picked up this hand:

AKQ10
kx
AKxxx
xx

With some partners i would rebid 2s over whatever he bids after 1 diamond, with others i rebid 1 spade and hope partner doesn't pass. I know most partner's styles well enough to know who will take a 2S bid as a suit and who will take it as points.

How do you (everyone) handle this?

I'm with you 2o1

I will bid 1s over 1h
But I will bid 2s over 2c because 1s is not legal

[bglover]

Well over 2c its a reverse... thats fine... but after 1c or 1d a JS may be in order to show points.

Of course, some people play that a jumpshift here shows a real suit in addition to points... my partner today plays that and so I knew to just bid 1S for fear of him thinking I am 6 5. Other partners take my bid to mean 19ish points no club stopper in the sequence 1d 1h 2s since I would have rebid 2n with any sorta stopper. That is the essence of this question. Both ways have their pluses and minuses and its a partnership driven thing.

So, now that Luis has forced me into long-windedness how do others treat this?

[inquiry]

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So, now that Luis has forced me into long-windedness how do others treat this?

With no specific agreement or with "vanilla" partners who hold on the ways of their grandfathers....

1c - (P) - 1h - (P); 1S

shows unbalanced type hand, 4S and non-forcing. A jump to 2S would be reverse stregth, forcing, and promising only 4S or maybe 3S with a heart fit.

Playing with my favorite partners or those who never played bridge "just for fun" in their life, then 1S is one round force, and can easily be bid with any hand, including this one, with or without extra stregth (And indeed with or without a real spade suit...assuming you know what you want to do on the next round).

For instance, when playing with papatgreek, 1S is not forcing and I would jump to 2S with the hand in question. When playing with Misho, 1S is forcing, and I bid it comfortably. We use xyz convention, so if he raises 1S to 2S, he did so ONLY because he was forced to bid.. .with some real values he would go through an invintational 2C followed by a spade raise.

Ben

[the hog]

Agree with Ben:
Playing with my present pd in the Polish style
1S is forcing but does not show reversing values
2S is a GF

Playing with ex pd
1S was forcing
2S was a mini splinter

[bglover]

Back to my original hand (the one that started this thread).

The opener did actually rebid 1S at the table. His partner leapt to 4s.
on a hand that looked something like this (been a week now so it isnt exact but close)

Kxxx
xx
Ajxxx
kq

I know ive got the shape and HCPs close enough to be right. What do you bid if the bidding has gone 1d 1h x 1n now?

[inquiry]

Quote

Back to my original hand
Kxxx
xx
Ajxxx
kq

I know ive got the shape and HCPs close enough to be right. What do you bid if the bidding has gone 1d 1h x 1n now?

A9x
xxx
kq109
Axx

Kxxx
xx
Ajxxx
kq

The problem was south’s need to jump to 4SPADES, no doubt because the negative double could be “weak”, ie, negative. If you play this double as showing 4 spades and any range, you might want to add xyz convention. Here over 1S, south bids 2D not 4S, this 2D doesn’t promise diamond support, but establishes game force. When south then supports dismonds, you get out of notrump or spades and back into diamonds. This same xyz convention works well over the 1NT rebid over the negative double as well. Example auctions given below.

North East South West
1D 1H DBL Pass
1S Pass 2D Pass
3C Pass 3D Pass
4D Pass 5D All Pass

North East South West
1D 1H DBL Pass
1NT Pass 2D Pass
2S Pass 3D Pass
3S Pass 4C Pass
4D Pass 5D All Pass

Of course, nothing wrong with a forcing 1S then xyz 2D bid either.

[Trpltrbl]

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You pick up this hand...

A9x
xxx
kq109
Axx

1st seat you open 1 diamond LHO bids 1h your partner doubles... back to you?

Gotta love them weak NT, solves all r problems
But since we don't I have to lie, and I will make my best lie, 1 SP. I always have good pd with 5 card support And this is keeping us nice and low. If I have to lie, I lie as cheap as possible, it's my Dutch blood hehe.

Mike ;D