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How do you reach this slam? 7NT is cold, but can you get there?

#21 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2006-September-08, 09:59

Bypassing the suit is silly.

Majors score more than minors, and 4=4 fits with good 5=4 or 6=4 side fits often score an extra trick. Those who have espoused ignoring the possible fit are influenced by seeing the hands, or they are fundamentally poor bidders.

1 1
2 2
2N 3


gets the gf going and sets as trump. There are many ways forward from here, but both players have significant extra values.

one way

3 4
4 4
5 5
6 7

but there are others, and most players seem to need keycard at some stage :)

BTW, returning to the issue of ignoring , how would responder feel if opener held something like AQJx xx KQxx Qxx.... now 6 is an excellent contract while 6 needs the hook should the opps make the likely lead of a . Take away the Q, and 6 remains a good contract while 6 has zero play.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#22 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2006-September-08, 14:14

Ône possible simple auction leading to 7D

1D 1S
2C 2H (1)
3NT (2) 4D(2)
...

(1) FSF,but inv.+
(2) max.,heart stopper
(2) natural forcing

Knowing that the partership holds
around 33HCP and a 9 card
Diamond Fit Responder can find
out about openers Aces and Kings
via an RKCB seq. and will bid ev. 7D.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#23 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2006-September-08, 14:18

sceptic, on Sep 8 2006, 04:32 AM, said:

maybe I am really dumb, But why would the bidding not start

1 diamond 1 spade 3 club

<snip>

Hi,

simply ask yourself the question, what did responder
promise so that opener has the right to believe. that
the partnership has enough for game.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#24 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2006-September-08, 14:43

The problem with these hands is not best illustrated by these specific hands.

With 33 HCP's combined, slam should be found, whatever the start. Finding the right grand, with confidence, might be a problem without great tools, but that concern hardly justifies revamping initial calls.

The problem with how to respond is more difficult when the slam is remote from a HCP perspective, but on. On the pattern shown, you can toss out the spade Ace, spade King, club Jack, and club Queen, 10 HCP's, yielding a mere 23 combined, and 6 makes on a 2-1 diamond split, and maybe even with a 3-0 split.

Will Opener commit to a slam probe, or even seriously consider it, after a 1 response and a 1NT rebid, if Opener lacks the spade Ace and his clubs are K-empty? [x-Kxx-A10xxx-Kxxx] That might not even be opened.

Will Responder move forward with the equally disturbing loss of his values? [xxxx-Ax-KQJxx-Ax] Hardly.

Even if the answer is "maybe," how? 1 - 2 - ??? Who passes 3NT? Or, 1 - 1 - 2 - 2 - ???

Not likely.

Open, then set a GF, then show pattern (preferably submarine), and then set strain. The fastest to this point (lowest level) wins.
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#25 User is offline   starfruit 

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Posted 2006-September-09, 17:49

Perhaps I missed it, but nobody seemed to mention any advantages regarding the blast.

I would personally like to play blasts like these as an attempt to hide as much information as possible, hoping that superior contract doesn't exist and that I'll be able to get a favourable lead.The extra overtrick that you gain from it would mean the difference between a top and an average. However here 6NT and 7 are still possible contracts so blasting seems like a bad idea.

First of all, unless you have some ways of uncovering a 4-4 major fit after an inverted minor, I don't see why you should reject trying for a major fit. Isn't this matchpoints after all? It's not difficult to construct hands where we can make 7 or even 6+1 where 6NT= is the limit in the other strain. It is only wrong when the combined hands are strong enough for 12 brute-force-tricks while there's a sure loser(usually due to missing QJxxx). Fortunately, it's still possible to convert back to 6NT once we check upon the missing Q so there's nothing that bad about searching for a fit.
(Edit : I realised there are some hands where you have both and fits, but there's a sure loser while you can make 7. Something like AxxxxAxxxKQxx. But still, I think it's better to investigate for 7, which is the highest scoring contract if there isn't enough for 7NT.)


Next, if the 2 rebid has been standard (which it certainly looks like), that could be anything between 12-18 HCP.
Give him AQ,K,AK and that's only 16 HCP with chances at grand, and he might have more than that.
Well, you could say that this is unlikely... but even with some minimum hands(say 12-13HCP), a combined hand of 30-31HCP with the 5th would give good play to 6NT, which is again a better scoring contract EVEN IF YOU MADE 6+1.
If you really need to blast, go for 6NT <_<

On this particular hand, reaching 7 should be easy.In fact once partner shows A,K,A,K after RKCB ace and king ask, we know that his 4 major cards (since he showed 5 and 4) are covered and we have no minor suit losers.

As for 7NT, even if partner has A,K,A,K,that only provides us a good play for 12 tricks, so it appears that the key is to check if partner has extras. Unfortunately, this might be difficult after 1-1-2-?. Depends on partnership methods I guess.

Lastly, blasting at IMPs is simply a bad idea. I've lost lots of IMPs just because I didn't bother to try for an unlikely grand.
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#26 User is offline   pbleighton 

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Posted 2006-September-09, 18:04

1D-1S-2C-4D(1430 in diamonds)-4NT(2 w/o DQ)-5D(kings not including DK)-5NT(2)-7D.

Sorry, no 7NT.

Peter
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#27 User is offline   mindofmike 

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Posted 2006-September-13, 09:00

Thanks to everyone for the responses. A few thoughts:

1) Many mentioned an inverted minor raise to 2D on the first round; however, we play that this 100% denies a four-card major, so 1S is somewhat forced. 2C, similarly, is the only option we have; 3C would be GF, and while I'm an agressive bidder, I still don't have it (make my hearts KQx, and I'd consider it).

2) After thinking it over, here's the sequence that works best in our methods:
1-1
2-2(1)
2NT-3
3(2)-4NT(3)
5H(4)-5NT(5)
6C(6)-6NT(7)

(1) I'm not sure this technically falls under the umbrella of "fourth suit forcing," but it's played as artificial.
(2) Cuebid in support of diamonds.
(3) RKCB
(4) Two keycards w/o Q.
(5) King-ask (specific kings)
(6) King of clubs.
(7) At this point, North can count 11 tricks; to make the 3S cuebid, South must have some extra values, so he trusts him to find a twelfth trick somewhere.

I still don't see how to reach the grand, but 6NT+1 will matchpoint significantly better than 6+1.

Thanks all,

Mike
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#28 User is offline   EricK 

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Posted 2006-September-13, 11:45

In your sequence, what would 6 mean instead of 6NT. I believe that in Kantar's book on RKCB it is asking in . When partner shows the K, can't you count 13 tricks in (5 2, 2 ruff, 2, 2)?
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#29 User is offline   arrows 

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Posted 2006-September-13, 12:01

I can't see what's the problem here. even without any fancy toys:

1D 4NT
5H 5NT
7D

After all key cards confirmed, what else more you need to bid 7D?
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