[inquiry]

Quote

Hi Ben

I find it somewhat amusing that both of the examples that you use in your latest post are GCC legal:

Raptor 1NT overcalls are clearly permitted under

3. NOTRUMP OVERCALL for either

a) two-suit takeout showing at least 5-4 distribution and at least one known suit (At the four level or higher there is no requirement to have a known suit.)

A 2NT opening showing both minors is permitted under

7. OPENING NOTRUMP BID AT THE TWO LEVEL OR HIGHER indicating at least 5-4 distribution in the minors.

Hi Richard, glad I gave you a laugh. But if you take the message in context, I said, and I quote, " There is nothing more frustrating for an SAYC beginner pair in the B/I forum tournment to hear a 2NT opening bid - then an alert along with the explaination that it is a weak hand with both minors. They have no frame of reference for how to deal with this bid." I stand by this statement. Yes, I know how to deal with a 2NT opening bid, as would anyone playing in a General Convention Chart event. I was referring specifically to "SAYC" and "BEGINNERS". As a rule, these people have never heard of the four types of convention charts much less a weak opening 2NT with a minor two suiter.

I think you confused a general discussion of the merits of preparing for what is one a convention chart with something else. Indeed, anyone playing in a GCC event, should be prepared for it. I think your remark proves my point. Once a beginner steps up to a GCC event, they should take a look at what they might face.

I maybe wrong about the raptor 1NT, maybe someone more knowledgable than I could step in. I realize that the fact that one suit is defined when you use raptor takes it off the WBF brown sticker, but my understanding (probably wrong upon re-reading) was that the NT overcall with two suits that was GCC approved occured at the two level or higher (like unusual NT, or (4H)-4NT for takeout. I thought the 1NT overcall at the one level, specifically for 5-4 or better takeout was only mid-chart approved. Where on mid-chart the wording is:

9. Notrump overcall as a two-suit takeout showing at least 5-4 distribution.

Reading the mid chart notrump overcall and general chart overcall text together, however, it seems the level is not necessary, what the distinctive issue is at ;east one known suit. So, in fact, my understanding may be totally backwards... Raptor may very well be general chart, and (4S)-4NT as an undefined two suiter may be mid chart. But other than my being wrong about the possible level of raptor, the point I was making remains valid. If you know the conventions allowed on the chart for the event you are playing in, you can prepare AHEAD OF TIME for what you might face, and things not on the convention chart can not be sprung on you unware. If you are not prepared for what is legally allowed, you have no one to blame but yourself. If something that is not on the list of things to prepare for shows up, call the cops... there is a reason for limiting what can be played (there may not be a good reason for excluding some things, but there are reasons to limit what can show up so that players can prepare in confidence they are ready for what they will face).

Ben

[hrothgar]

I would argue that there are two ways to teach novices:

One method focuses on defining a standard system and diliberately shielding the novices from anything "extra-ordinary" until they achieve a certain level of proficency.

A second method requires preparing the novice to cope with a variety of unexpected treatments by emphasizing "flexibility" and meta-agreements.

I'm not sure which approach is best as an instructional method. [I am even less sure within the context of a cosmopolitan environment like BBO]

However, I have a strong bias against "intermediate" solutions. Either focus on a single approach or take a laissez faire attitude, but don't permit an arbitrary range of accepted conventions.

In the example you cite with the SAYC novices and the 2NT opening showing both minors: Obviously, it sounds as if there was some sort of problem. Without more information its difficult to understand where the disconnect came from.

I'm not sure whether this would best be handled by

(a) Banning the 2NT opening (along with any other bid that doesn't match BBO SAYC)
( Providing the novices with a simple defense against the 2NT opening

[the hog]

Luis, your first post is the best post from you that I have ever read.
Totally rofl.
Do you want to send your systems oracle to Australia? We will take up a collection.

[inquiry]

Quote

In the example you cite with the SAYC novices and the 2NT opening showing both minors: Obviously, it sounds as if there was some sort of problem. Without more information its difficult to understand where the disconnect came from.

I'm not sure whether this would best be handled by

(a) Banning the 2NT opening (along with any other bid that doesn't match BBO SAYC)
( Providing the novices with a simple defense against the 2NT opening

Again, you seem to misunderstand. I said the "There is nothing more frustrating for an SAYC beginner pair in the B/I forum tournment to hear a 2NT opening bid - then an alert along with the explaination that it is a weak hand with both minors. They have no frame of reference for how to deal with this bid. "

This wasn't a comment saying all players at the table were playing SAYC, only A PAIR who hear the bid. Second, I wasn't advocating banning 2NT opening bid... after all, the 2NT opening bidder is presumably a beginner/intermediate themselves, they just are learning a different system. All I was expressing was the nature of the response if you are not prepared for it.

As far as how to teach novices. KISS is a good approach.