[Gpm_bg]

The_Hog, on Aug 29 2006, 08:21 AM, said:

Your partner's 4S bid is very poor; he has an obvious 2H bid. The point of bidding 2H is not to find another 5-3 fit, but rather to investigate how the 2 hands fit together.

Good point and i'm agree that 4♠ is very poor even in limited SAYC open force.
Investigating game is not curiosity for me, it's just a way to let some of both partner just to say : Simple game, welldone p.
Bidding through the levels is the core of the game bridge. That's why as i say up, i use that kind of bids 1-4 and 1-3 rarely( ofcourse without intereferense from opponents ). Hiding game from the ops hide beauty and from partner.

[ochinko]

The_Hog, on Aug 29 2006, 09:21 AM, said:

Gpm_bg, on Aug 29 2006, 12:38 AM, said:

i didn't resist for regret and 
yes, we play bergen raises
no, for exclusive blackwood

partner hold:

♠Qxx  ♥AKxxx ♦xxx ♣Kx

i bid 5♣ and if he was bid 5♥, with my void ♥, i should stop on 5♠,
K♠ was good and the game is so so safety
but he bid 5♠ and i hoped that he also don't have ♥control,
and raise to 6♠, not penalised but down for regret.

I would have passed 4S as slam is too unlikely.
Your partner's 4S bid is very poor; he has an obvious 2H bid. The point of bidding 2H is not to find another 5-3 fit, but rather to investigate how the 2 hands fit together. That is why Ochinko's 2D bid is fatuous - it does nothing to diagnose a possible double fit.

I agree that 2♥ is the correct bid. It's just that it works only for specific distributions in partner's hand - like the one HeartA pointed out.

While I dreamt of writing a bidding bot, I don't bid like a bot myself. Here are two examples from last night:

1. Both vuln, you're in 2nd position after a pass

K3
Q9
KJ75
AJ1072

I was the only one that opened 1NT (15-17). Only one other player reached 3NT from my side, but the pair explained all their cards, and opps found the spade lead from 92, and it went two down.

2. Again both vuln, you're in 3rd after two passes

J73
J8
94
AKQJ43

I was the only that opened 3♣ instead of 1. Opps stopped in 3♠ for +1. On most of the tables they played 4♥ for +2.

I certainly don't pretend to be a bidding genius, but I am happy when I could find a non-trivial bid that works.

[the hog]

I'm afraid your second example proves nothing at all. Against whom were you playing?

Personally I would not open the first hand with 1NT. Sure you have a 5th C, but the Hx Hx holdings suggest the hand should be downgraded, not upgraded. I would open 1D, but most would open 1C.

Further, both of the posted examples do nothing to add to the hand being discussed. You would look stupid if your partner raised your 2D bid to 5, wouldn't you, or if he splintered in support of Ds? Now try convincing him that any S bid is a place to play rather than a cue bid.............

[whereagles]

Actually, playing limited openings, that Qxx AKxxx xxx Kx is quite the textbook example of an ambiguous 1♠-4♠

But if 1♠ is of the usual 11-22 hcp kind, a straight 4♠ is clearly a technically inferior bid.

[Gpm_bg]

Another exaple

you hold

♠Q10xxx ♥Q ♦- ♣KJ10xxxx


you partner open 1♣ 16+ , you answer 1NT 7-9 pts any

he bid 2♠, you bid 4♦Cue bid, he bid 4♠


second bid 1♣ - 1♠ ( nat 5+ 8+pts )

he bid 2♠ you bid 4♦ same and he also close to 4♠

do you will look for more ?

[P_Marlowe]

Gpm_bg, on Aug 29 2006, 05:31 AM, said:

Another exaple

you hold

♠Q10xxx  ♥Q  ♦- ♣KJ10xxxx


you partner open 1♣ 16+ , you answer 1NT 7-9 pts any

he bid 2♠, you bid 4♦Cue bid, he bid 4♠


second bid 1♣ - 1♠ ( nat 5+ 8+pts )

he bid 2♠ you bid 4♦ same and he also close to 4♠

do you will look for more ?

Hi,

If after openers 4S bid you have the feeling
that you did not tell the whole story about your
hand, than maybe 4D splinter was the wrong bid.

In the first seq. the splinter describes your hand
fairly well, but if you believe that 5th spade is worth
a move, bid 5S over 4S.

In the second seq. 3C and 3S are certainly alternatives
to the 4D call, ... 3C being the better bid, especially if
3C would show values.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: I prefer 1S instead of 1NT.

[whereagles]

Well.. in this case you have a very unusual hand, 5 losers opposite an expected 4 cover cards from the club bidder. Clearly one final slam try is mandatory.

If you want to be disciplined, try 5♣ and pass if pard bids 5♠.

If you want to risk a little, 6♣ is the bid. That should show a 65 or better, with diamond void (with 6511 you bid blackwood).

[ochinko]

The_Hog, on Aug 29 2006, 01:19 PM, said:

I'm afraid your second example proves nothing at all. Against whom were you playing?

Yes, sorry that I took the thread off-track, but it looked exausted. Admittedly, none of the opponents was an expert. LHO overcalled my 3♣ with 3♠ holding

AQ542
KD94
A85
2

He could have doubled or bid bravely 4♣.

RHO passed with

K8
A7532
103
10987

You can't blame them too much. My point was that when I believe there is not much value in describing my hand to partner, I can at least make opps' task more difficult. That's the link between the examples and the original hand in question.

[Gpm_bg]

Ok, i'll gave more details, maybe first explanation was very fast

you hold up card and you play precision ♣ with your partner

Now only you both bidding

He open 1♣ which mean 16+ any pts
You have two ways to respond with your cards
1. - 1NT - some variants of precision first bid is only pts 7-9pts any distrubution

On your 1NT(any) he bid 2♠ which is 5+♠ 16-20 pts
You gave 4♦ Cue bid with 4+♠ support and control ♦ ( single or void )
He close to 4♠, rejecting to continue bidding controls

2- 1♠ natural 5+♠ 8+pts
He gave bid 2♠ which could be non other 5th suit and same pts
For me he can't bid 3♠ which should be higher level of opening 20+ pts 3+♠ and no 5th suit again. 3♠ in that bids sound definetly as SI if you are not in range 8-10 pts and you don't have suitable controls

On 2♠ you gave 4♦ at control and again SI
if he bid 4♥, which is most interesting control for you how should be continued from now on
And if he bid 4♠ does it mean stop and signoff or not exactly ?