[bid_em_up]

mike777, on Jul 6 2006, 11:49 AM, said:

bid_em_up, on Jul 6 2006, 11:45 AM, said:

kfgauss, on Jul 5 2006, 09:05 PM, said:

Also, Winstonm seems to have missed that 3C was an (artifical) generic GF.

Andy

You really dont believe this do you?

The GF was created by the reverse. Why on earth would you create a GF again??!!

3C should show a 0-4-5-4 hand. Cannot be 0-4-6-3, as this hand should bid 3D, not 3C.

Ok why does a reverse create a game force?

I assume we respond very often with less than 6 hcp and if opener is vcid in spades I cannot wait to see opener's forcing game hand that could not open 2clubs and risked playing 1D.

Why would you assume that? If your style is considered "pretty much standard" then as responder, you certainly should be expected to hold 5+ hcp.

Given a standard reverse, this auction is supposed to be game forcing....and to use your own question, why create a GF auction with 3C, when you didnt open 2C?

[mike777]

bid_em_up, on Jul 6 2006, 11:52 AM, said:

mike777, on Jul 6 2006, 11:49 AM, said:

bid_em_up, on Jul 6 2006, 11:45 AM, said:

kfgauss, on Jul 5 2006, 09:05 PM, said:

Also, Winstonm seems to have missed that 3C was an (artifical) generic GF.

Andy

You really dont believe this do you?

The GF was created by the reverse. Why on earth would you create a GF again??!!

3C should show a 0-4-5-4 hand. Cannot be 0-4-6-3, as this hand should bid 3D, not 3C.

Ok why does a reverse create a game force?

I assume we respond very often with less than 6 hcp and if opener is vcid in spades I cannot wait to see opener's forcing game hand that could not open 2clubs and risked playing 1D.

Why would you assume that? If your style is considered "pretty much standard" then as responder, you certainly should be expected to hold 5+ hcp.

Given a standard reverse, this auction is supposed to be game forcing....and to use your own question, why create a GF auction with 3C, when you didnt open 2C?

At fav vul I thought Fred G said he would respond to 1D with any hand with at least zero hcp, but I may be mistaken. I know Kokish would. In any case are you saying most top class players promise 5+ hcp over 1D?

Are you saying top class players pass with:
Axxxx...xxxx...void....xxxx? or even less?
Kxxxxx....Jxxxx..void...xx?

It was not stated we play wjs, I do not, so I assumed responder may even have some weak hand with long spades and short hearts?

[awm]

Despite the complaints people are making about the methods, they are not unreasonable. Most of us do not play reverses as game forcing (and you have a lot of issues bidding hands in the 16-18 hcp range if you do). Playing 2♠ as natural and forcing one round but aspecific about strength is pretty much standard among north american experts (I understand that it appears to be common practice amongst ACOL players for certain calls like 2♠ in this auction to be non-forcing). After 1♦-1♠-2♥-2♠, many of opener's bids are non-forcing: after all 2♠ did not promise extras and the reverse wasn't forcing to game, so we need a way out of the auction. What is opener to do with a game-force hand with no spade fit and no club stopper? For example:

Ax
AKxx
AKQxxx
x

A
AKxx
AKJxx
xxx

Using 3♣ as an artificial game force here is quite reasonable. Holding 1453 or even 0454 it seems like opener can just bid 3NT (this will not show a balanced hand since 18-19 flat would have bid 2NT over 1♠ and not 2♥).

In any case, responder's first real choice in the auction comes at third turn. I think 3♠ was a bad call. Basically the options are:

3♦ shows a moderate fit (could be doubleton). Obviously this is out.
3♥ should show three-card support. With four hearts and a good hand it's better to make a forcing 3♥ raise over 2♥ (opener can always revert to spades if he somehow has a 3361 hand). With a weak hand including four hearts responder can bid 4♥ over 3♣ (fast arrival, slam is pretty much out of the picture).
3♠ shows six spades, but they really should be six good ones. With a hand like the second example (stiff spade honor, nothing in clubs) opener is pretty much endplayed into raising.
3NT shows a club stopper.

I think this hand is really a choice between 3♥ and 3NT. The 3♥ call seems more flexible, as it allows opener to revert to spades with a doubleton or bid 3NT (having shown doubt) with something like Qx in clubs. If opener really has nothing in clubs then 3NT is not necessarily going to be a great contract.

[neilkaz]

awm's post here is really good. Thx for your detailed insight. .. neilkaz ..

[bid_em_up]

mike777, on Jul 6 2006, 11:56 AM, said:

bid_em_up, on Jul 6 2006, 11:52 AM, said:

mike777, on Jul 6 2006, 11:49 AM, said:

bid_em_up, on Jul 6 2006, 11:45 AM, said:

kfgauss, on Jul 5 2006, 09:05 PM, said:

Also, Winstonm seems to have missed that 3C was an (artifical) generic GF.

Andy

You really dont believe this do you?

The GF was created by the reverse. Why on earth would you create a GF again??!!

3C should show a 0-4-5-4 hand. Cannot be 0-4-6-3, as this hand should bid 3D, not 3C.

Ok why does a reverse create a game force?

I assume we respond very often with less than 6 hcp and if opener is vcid in spades I cannot wait to see opener's forcing game hand that could not open 2clubs and risked playing 1D.

Why would you assume that? If your style is considered "pretty much standard" then as responder, you certainly should be expected to hold 5+ hcp.

Given a standard reverse, this auction is supposed to be game forcing....and to use your own question, why create a GF auction with 3C, when you didnt open 2C?

At fav vul I thought Fred G said he would respond to 1D with any hand with at least zero hcp, but I may wrong. I know Kokish would. In any case are you saying most top class players promise 5+ hcp over 1D?

Are you saying top class players pass with:
Axxxx...xxxx...void....xxxx? or even less?
Kxxxxx....Jxxxx..void...xx?

It was not stated we play wjs, I do not, so I assumed responder may even have some weak hand with long spades and short hearts?

Mike,

I dont care what other "top" players do. I do know what works for me. Would Fred respond 1S over a 1D opening on Axxx xx xxx xxxx? I dont know, nor do I really care, since it is highly unlikely that Fred will ever be my partner anyway, and my partners are not usually as competent as his are . I do know that I would not.

Imo, I have found that responding on Axxxx xxxx VOID xxxx rates to lead to trouble more often than not. The next bid you are likely to hear is either 3D or 2N, now how happy are you? Pass initially describes your hand perfectly and may in fact be the last makeable spot. If it goes all pass, so be it, but most times opps will reopen, and now if you enter the bidding, partner will know you are competing on little or no values instead of actually attempting to place some real values in your hand. Why try to rescue partner before you are actually in trouble, only to make matters worse?

Given that many partnerships will play leb. after reverse, it is wiser to play the 2S call as a bust hand with long spades and no pure fit for either of openers suit, and use the sequence 1D-1S-2H-2N-3C-3S to show a non-fitting spade hand with values. This way, you can play 2S a level cheaper using this sequence opposite A AKxx AKQxx xxx for example (opener should pass on the known misfit). The same would apply for the sequence 1C-1H-2D-2H (long hearts, bust), only now you also have the additional call of 2S (instead of 2H) to show certain other hand types, in addition to the leb sequences/inferences that are available.

[bid_em_up]

To address the original question. I think the 2S call should show at least 6 (not just 5 as some seem to believe). Opener has already shown at least 9 cards in diamonds and hearts, and since you are looking at a diamond void, he is very likely to hold at least 6+ diamonds. Even if he only has 9 cards, the odds are against him holding at least three spades so every effort should be made to pick one of openers two suits whenever you can. Therefore, you must hold 6 spades.

Given that, it is the 3S call that I find the least desirable here. Partner cannot hold any sort of fit for spades. On the actual auction, I still see no reason why partner cant (and shouldnt) be 0-4-5-4, and bid 4C over 3C. Having failed to do that, the cheapest available game now is 4H and thats what I do.

[kfgauss]

mikeh, on Jul 6 2006, 03:26 PM, said:

The ONLY time opener should consider a reverse into a 3 card ♥ suit is with 3 card ♠ support: he has to have a place to go if he is raised. Thus after the 2♠ 3♣ sequence, you KNOW that he lacks 3♠ and thus he 100% has 4♥.

I don't actually agree with this. What about:

Ax AKx AQJxxxx x

and many other similar hands (make the hand slightly better if you're comfortable bidding 3D on this).

I'll note that I think this hand bids 2H and follows that up with 3C.

Andy

[mike777]

kfgauss, on Jul 6 2006, 02:23 PM, said:

mikeh, on Jul 6 2006, 03:26 PM, said:

The ONLY time opener should consider a reverse into a 3 card ♥ suit is with 3 card ♠ support: he has to have a place to go if he is raised. Thus after the 2♠ 3♣ sequence, you KNOW that he lacks 3♠ and thus he 100% has 4♥.

I don't actually agree with this. What about:

Ax AKx AQJxxxx x

and many other similar hands (make the hand slightly better if you're comfortable bidding 3D on this).

I'll note that I think this hand bids 2H and follows that up with 3C.

Andy

Again you are forcing to game across from:
KT9xx..xxx....void...JT9xx ? or other similiar hands?
Kxxxx,,,Jxx....void.....Jxxxx

[mikeh]

kfgauss, on Jul 6 2006, 02:23 PM, said:

mikeh, on Jul 6 2006, 03:26 PM, said:

The ONLY time opener should consider a reverse into a 3 card ♥ suit is with 3 card ♠ support: he has to have a place to go if he is raised. Thus after the 2♠ 3♣ sequence, you KNOW that he lacks 3♠ and thus he 100% has 4♥.

I don't actually agree with this. What about:

Ax AKx AQJxxxx x

and many other similar hands (make the hand slightly better if you're comfortable bidding 3D on this).

I'll note that I think this hand bids 2H and follows that up with 3C.

Andy

Ok, I admit that 'only' was an overbid.

In fact, a more accurate statement of the thought I was trying to express is:

'Opener will either hold 4♥ or have a hand with which, if ♥ are ever raised, he intends to prefer back to ♠'.

Thus on your example hand, I would rebid 3♦ over 2♠, non-forcing (my reverses without a fit are strong but not gf). If my hand were stronger or if I were feeling particularly optimistic, so that I had to make that horrible (because so devoid of useful info) 3♣ force (I am not objecting to the use of the bid in this fashion, merely observing that it is impefect), then I would bid 3♠ over 3♥.

Yes, this may mean playing in a 5-2, but so what? If neither opener nor responder can bid 3N (and responder can always try 3N over 3♠ with the right hand), we are not missing a playable 3N. If responder cannot raise or give preference to ♦, we are not missing a good ♦ game/slam.

So I repeat my choice of 3♥ for all the same reasons I expressed earlier, subject only to the modification of principle described here.