[rbforster]

I'm playing a precision style strong club system (any 16+) and we've decided open balanced hands relatively conservatively when vulnerable (NV is another story all together, believe me ). Our 1NT opening shows a balanced hand with a good 12-15 pts and we don't open balanced hands with weaker values.

I've noticed that there isn't a natural meaning to the auction 1♦-1M-1NT since opener with any balanced hand would have started either with 1NT or 1♣. Our 1♦ opening is natural, promising limited values (8-15, rule of 18) and an unbalanced hand with 4+♦, possibly including 5♣s (our 2♣ opener shows 6+♣ or 5♣+4M).

Does anyone have suggestions for a good conventional meaning for this 1NT rebid? It seems that there are lots more problem hands after 1♦-1♠ than there are when partner responds 1♥, so in principle we might want different methods for these two cases.

Here are some ideas I've thought of:

1. A semibalanced hand without 3+ card support for partner's major
2. Exactly 3 card support for partner's major and a maximum
3. Over 1♠ response, shows a 4 card ♥ suit without enough values/shape to reverse
4. Shows longer clubs than diamonds (ie 5♣ 4♦)

Currently we happily raise partner's major to 2M with any 3 cards and an unbalanced hand (which 1♦ here guarentees). Less happily we rebid 2♣ on 4441's and hands with both minors at least 54 (either longer).

For natural rebidding, I see problem shapes as 1444, 0454 and 4♥-5+♦ weak hands (after 1♠ response), as well as (1M,3)45 hands after either major response. Any suggestions as to which of these might be worth clarifying with a conventional 1NT rebid?

[Gerben42]

So far I've been using 1♦ 1♥ 1NT as showing more than a singleton in partner's suit, and 1♠ in addition to showing 4♠ it shows short ♥. After 1♦ 1♠ you have only one bid and it simply shows an unbalanced hand that is too weak for the 2♥ reverse.

[awm]

Here's a somewhat unorthodox alternative:

1NT = length in the suit below the major partner (oops) bid; wide range of values

So 1♦ - 1♥ - 1NT = 6+♦, not four spades
1♦ - 1♠ - 1NT = 4♥, many possible patterns

What's the point here? Several advantages:

(1) Frees up 1♦-1♥-2♦ and 1♦-1♠-2♥ to show good raises of the major.
(2) Allows opener to show x36x and 34xx patterns respectively, by temporizing with 1NT call.
(3) Allows responder to bid 2♣ as a cheap relay to get more info after the 1NT rebid.

Sam and I play a different meaning for 1♦, so we don't use these exact sequences (and our sequences won't be much use to you). However, we've found the ability to distinguish between good and bad raises of responder's major at the two-level to be a pretty substantial win.

[JanM]

Another alternative, that we've been using for a while and like a lot, is to play transfers after 1♦-1M. So 1NT shows both minors (either can be longer - with 6 diamonds and 4 clubs, 1♦-1M-2♣-2♦-3♣ is stronger than 1♦-1M-1NT-2♣-2♦). 1NT is intended as forcing but doesn't contain any game forcing hands opposite a minimum response, so responder can pass once in a while (haven't yet ). 1♦-1♠-2♦ shows 4 hearts, 5 diamonds and not enough to reverse, a very awkward hand otherwise. The transfer to 2M shows 3 card support, a raise shows 4 card support (of course one could use these for good and bad raises, but we've found knowing the trump length is more useful).

[pbleighton]

Oops - ignore.

[luke warm]

i use any rebid of 1nt by opener to show a 3 suited, 11-15 hand.. if 1d is the opening, 1nt shows short major, i use 1h then 1nt to show short minor...

[sfbp]

I play 1NT exactly as you would think, balanced hand. It also works when I have 1=4=4=4 and partner bids a spade, though this is probably better at the upper end of the range, for obvious reasons. In our version pard is limited by failure to make a strong jump shift, so its not too too likely we mis slam by this potential underbid.

Why?

1. You can rebid 1N on 5 or even SIX diamonds as long as the hand is balanced and play there (esp at mp) for a better score than 2D
2. XYZ is now available for partner to describe his hand (yes I suppose there may be a way to use something XYZ-like over a 2C rebid but we havent got that far yet)

Note that 3 and 4 seat are still able to open 1D on 4 (or even 3) "because pard might respond my major" especially when the opener has a poor hand he feels he must open in these seats.

[awm]

JanM, on Jul 1 2006, 03:28 PM, said:

Another alternative, that we've been using for a while and like a lot, is to play transfers after 1♦-1M. So 1NT shows both minors (either can be longer - with 6 diamonds and 4 clubs, 1♦-1M-2♣-2♦-3♣ is stronger than 1♦-1M-1NT-2♣-2♦). 1NT is intended as forcing but doesn't contain any game forcing hands opposite a minimum response, so responder can pass once in a while (haven't yet ). 1♦-1♠-2♦ shows 4 hearts, 5 diamonds and not enough to reverse, a very awkward hand otherwise. The transfer to 2M shows 3 card support, a raise shows 4 card support (of course one could use these for good and bad raises, but we've found knowing the trump length is more useful).

I'm not sure I understand the rationale behind this transfer. As far as I know there are two main reasons for transfers:

(1) It can right-side a contract. This is the less-important reason. That doesn't seem to be a big win here, since opener's 1NT bid with both minors is fairly likely to wrong-side the notrump contract. With two suits already bid, the most likely suit contracts have already been "sided" anyway.

(2) It allows the transferrer another call, which can help to describe his or her hand more efficiently. However, in this auction responder has a wide range of values. Presumably over 1♦-1M-1NT, responder's 2♣ is non-forcing (otherwise you can't ever get out in 2♣ when responder is weak, which seems bad). Similarly over 1♦-1M-2♣, responder's 2♦ is non-forcing. So if responder actually has a good hand, he or she can't accept the transfer and you haven't really gained anything. The potential benefit is that when responder is weak and does accept the transfer, opener gets another call. That's potentially great when opener has some "big hand" and instead of being forced to jump to the three level to describe, opener can start with a transfer and then plan to make another call to complete the description! But in a precision context, these "big hands" don't really exist.... opener is already limited to something like 11-15 high, and this means he or she's not going anywhere if responder wants out of the auction unless holding extreme distribution. But all your jumps and reverses are available for those 6-5 hands and 7+card diamond suits.... Anyways, I can see how transfers would be a big win when opener is virtually unlimited but not so much in a precision system.

In contrast, using the free 1NT call to show the highest available rebid (instead of shifting everything down one step) creates space for a 2♣ call as an efficient game force. For example, compare 1♦-1♠-1NT (hearts) to 1♦-1♠-2♦ (hearts). In the first auction, opener can force game via a 2♣ (4th suit) call with plenty of space to spare, or can sign off in diamonds, hearts, or spades. In the second auction, presumably responder can pass (although potentially this is awkward since 2♦ has a wide range) or bid 2♥ or 2♠ or 2NT as non-forcing. In order to force, responder has to go all the way to the three-level.

[rbforster]

So I've been thinking again about the auction starting with 1♦-1♥, where it's an unbalanced but limited diamond opener (~9-15, 4+♦) and

1♦ - 1♥ shows natural 4+ or only 3+♥ and inv+ values (relay)

I was wondering about the responses one might like to use for relays here, and was wondering if there were any other relay systems that faced this issue before (ie no balanced hands in their 1♦ and relay continuations). Pointers always welcome, and non-canape systems are preferred since I'm playing 5cM's.

I was thinking about treating the wide-ranging hand types in 1♥ by something like "2 under" transfers by opener so that then responder's first step rebid can be the strong relay and completion would be natural and NF preference. For example opener's rebids might be

1♦ (4+ unbal, 9-15) - 1♥ :

1♠ - clubs (5+/4+ minors)
1NT - 6+ diamonds single suited
2♣ - 3+ hearts, maximum
2♦ - 4+ spades (and longer diamonds, conveniently NF)
2♥ - 3+ hearts, minimum
higher bids probably various maximum hands with 4+♥ or extreme distribution

Basically you lose the cheap and natural 1♠ rebid (playing in 2♠ instead of 1♠ or 1NT if responder doesn't like diamonds) in exchange for a step relay bid over all the common opener's hand types. Of course opener's rebids aren't actually forcing since this is a strong club context, but I would guess passing anything besides 1NT or 2♦ among the transfer bids would be rare.

I haven't thought all this through yet, but maybe some of potential issues might be addressed by having responder start with 1♠ when 4-4 in the majors (and have the "extra" free NT bid after 1♦-1♠, either 1NT or permuted to something else, promise 4♥s). Also, to handle awkward 4441 hands where 1NT might be a better contract and transferring to the 2nd suit would push past 1NT, we might want to open 4441's with a short black suit 1NT with appropriate values, or pass otherwise.

Any other thoughts or suggestions?

[Impact]

Although we use relays, the situation is analogous as our 1D opening (in strongC) is unbalanced.

1H is a relay but not GF, just general enquiry:

responses: 1S= 4S unbal
1NT= short S (1-4-4-4 or 0-5-4-4 or 0-4-4-5 or 0-4-5-4)
2C= 4D & 5+C
2D= 4C & 5+D
2H= 5+D & 5+C with short S
2S= 5+D & 5+C with equal Majors
2NT= 5+D & 5+C with short H


THe equivalent to your original question is 1D- 1S (not forcing but natural)
?
Pass= ok
1NT= 3-suited short S (incl 5431)
2m= usually 6+ suit (2C may be 55m
2H= 0-5-4-4 (alternative treatment m55)
2S= nat
2NT= any of max 6+m atleast AKJ OR 3-1 (54) max OR 4S voidH m54
3m= 6+m max but suit <AKJ
3H= S raise with C suit
3S= S raise with D suit
3NT=
4C= S raise with long C and short H
4D= S raise with long D and short H
4H= S raise with long C and short D
4S= S raise with long D and short C

regards

[Echognome]

I liked 1NT showing both minors. Simple, but seemed to work well in practice. I'm sure there are other thought out schemes, but especially if you are going to vary your treatment according to vulnerability, you may want something that isn't too taxing on the brain.

[glen]

Impact, on Dec 11 2007, 08:26 PM, said:

1H is a relay but not GF, just general enquiry:

responses: 1S= 4S unbal
1NT= short S (1-4-4-4 or 0-5-4-4 or 0-4-4-5 or 0-4-5-4)
2C= 4D & 5+C
2D= 4C & 5+D
2H= 5+D & 5+C with short S
2S= 5+D & 5+C with equal Majors
2NT= 5+D & 5+C with short H

What do 1-4-5-3 and 3-4-5-1 and 1-4-3-5 and 3-4-1-5 open in your system?

If they open 1♦, what do they rebid after the 1♥ relay?

[benlessard]

What i suggest you to play is that ur unbalanced 1D could be better then 16.

And play that 2nd rebids are in transfers.

1D---1H
??

1S= 4s
1Nt= 4 or 5C
2C= 6D
2D= weak H raise or GF
2H = medium H raise
rest is GF.


1D---1S
???

1Nt= 4 or 5C
2C= 6D or reverse D+H
2D= 4H not reverse strenght
2H = GF or weak S raise
2S = medium raise
2nt + GF



That is what we play and i have no complaint.

Wanting to show wich of the C or D is longer inst worth it. Same for the 4441.

You wont get rich opening 1D with light hands (8-10 pts) IMHO.

[Impact]

officeglen, on Dec 11 2007, 09:47 PM, said:

Impact, on Dec 11 2007, 08:26 PM, said:

1H is a relay but not GF, just general enquiry:

responses: 1S= 4S unbal
                1NT= short S (1-4-4-4 or 0-5-4-4 or 0-4-4-5 or 0-4-5-4)
                2C= 4D & 5+C
                2D= 4C & 5+D
                2H= 5+D & 5+C with short S
                2S= 5+D & 5+C with equal Majors
                2NT= 5+D & 5+C with short H

What do 1-4-5-3 and 3-4-5-1 and 1-4-3-5 and 3-4-1-5 open in your system?

If they open 1♦, what do they rebid after the 1♥ relay?

We open 1H with 4+H & could be canape in any suit - albeit longer S only if holding at least 5H, but the hands with both minors are taken out of the 1H bid.

1S= 5+S but excludes hands with 5+H (ie max of 4H only).

So the simple answer to your question is to open 1H with 4H & longer minor.

Effectively the rationale behind the system choice is manifold:-
S is the most important suit as you can outbid the opponents
When opening with a "utility" 1D bid responder only caters for 4S (not 4H) as when opener holds 4/5H he holds both minors
When holding H, we adopt the Blue Club style of "preference" in general terms only reverting to H with 3card support - so that canape is assumed. Accordingly raise directly to the 2-level with 3 card support and ruffing value but not to 3 -level and have many forms of fit raise and relays (also a 2D response is limited with 5S & 3H!!) while transfers elsewhere..

regards,

[awm]

I think Rob's structure is missing a bid for 4-1-4-4. If you rebid 1♠ showing minors, the spade fit is lost forever. If you rebid 2♦ showing spades, partner will expect five diamonds and you may well play a silly diamond partial, not to mention that you might've bypassed the best partscore of 1NT. The situation is no better for 4-0-4-5.

[Mbodell]

In one version of strong club I play 1♦-1M-1NT is part of our balanced NT ladder. You could play a 11-13 or 10-12 NT opening and put a 14-15 or 13-15 or whatever go through the 1♦-1M-1NT. In this system I actually play 1NT as 12-14 and 1♦-1M-1NT as 15-17 and 1♣ as 16+ unbal and 18+ bal. I personally like that as it makes the 1♣ openings stronger and easier to game force over and the 1♦ harder to interfere when nearly half the time it is a strong NT.

In another version I play 1♦ as completely artificial, 2 or 3 suited, no 5 card major, non-forcing, possibly 0 diamonds. Then over 1M response 1NT is both minors as others suggest. This implies that 1♦-1M-2m means m and ♥ (since otherwise you'd bid/support ♠), and frees up the 1♥ response to 1♦ to show either ♥ or both m.

[benlessard]

Is it better to have a weak 3 card raise or a 15-17 3 card raise.

in Standard

1D----1S-----2C-----2D
2S = 15-17------ 3154

with a weak 3154 you either raise to 2S immediatly or you pass 2D.

My opener 2nd rebid is in transfer so...

1D----1S-------2C(showing 6D)--------2D (6-9)
???

should 2S show the weak hand with 6D + 3S or the non-minimum hand with 6D+3S.

My feeling is that if im 15-17 the chance that i go down in 2S is low. But being 12-14 its a real possibility 3D make but not 2S.

So should i play

1D----1S-------2S (15-17 with 3 or 4 trumps)

1D-----1S------2C--------2D---------2S (12-14 with 3 trumps)

1D------1S------2H (12-14 always 4 card support)

or

1D-----1S-------2S (15-17 always 4 card support)

1D------1S------2C--------2D---------2S (15-17 with 3 card support)

1D------1S------2H (12-14 3 or 4 card support)