[luke warm]

germany is far from the only country in which this is happening... it seems that state mandated salary structures work, if at all, for a short time only - until the professionals refuse to submit

Germany's doctor problem

[cherdano]

luke warm, on Jun 27 2006, 03:25 PM, said:

germany is far from the only country in which this is happening... it seems that state mandated salary structures work, if at all, for a short time only - until the professionals refuse to submit

Germany's doctor problem

For what's it is worth, I think this article fails to give quite a bit of relevant context, but nevertheless its pretty spot on and seems to give a realistic picture.

I am not sure what it has to do with the headline, though. The salaries of doctors at clinics are negotiated between the employee's and employers (which happen to be the regional governments in the case of university clinics). For independent doctors, what is regulated is the amount they get paid by the public health insurance for each individual treatment, and (that's the more controversial part) a maximum number per quarter for any specific treatment they will get compensated for.

Actually I think more doctors are leaving Germany because of bad working conditions than because of bad pay.

Arend

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

the main problem is not the salary.
It is above average compared with other
academics.

The main problem is, the number of doctors
working in a clinic, they dont have enough
doctors (and nurses, ...), which means
add. hours of work.
If you take the unpaid hours of work, the
average pay is lower than the average.

Simply put: the work condition are very hard.
This has something to do with the general costs,
the medical system needs more money than it
gets, and the hospitals try to minimize the pay.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mike777]

I do not understand why not have free health care as some countries do?
If it is free, how can money or working conditions be a problem? The doctors are free, the nurses are free, the buildings are free, the machinery is free, the medicine is free, the janitors are free,, what is the problem?

If the main problem are salaries for nurses or janitors or whatever, then why not just raise them so salaries are not a problem? Raise the salaries for building contractors and suppliers and you get more hospitals, raise the salary of hospital workers and you get more hospital workers, raise the salaries of medicine makers and you get more medicines....how can you say salaries are not the main problem?

Raise the salaries of Malaria workers and medicine workers to a billion bucks each and see how much malaria medicine is made. Pay vaccine makers billions and see how millions of kids in the third world are saved with vaccines.

Hint bad pay leads to bad working conditions however you want to define it.

[sceptic]

Quote

Hint bad pay leads to bad working conditions however you want to define it.

I disagree strongly

I just started a new job and the pay is not what I can get else where, probably a lot less, but the conditions I work in are excellent, I work with a lot of content people that stay because it is a good job, but not the best pay, you are treated well and it is fun working, (it has been a long time since I was happy at work, I have worked for two american companies) and if that is what you are using as a bench mark, then you are sadly misguided.

Lower pay does not automatically mean worse conditions

Shite management is what makes bad conditions, please do not use pay as a mitigating factor

[mike777]

I did not say lower pay I said Bad pay....please note my exact words.

IF you got bad pay and lousy boss then quit and get bad paid somewhere else.

If you got great pay and lousy working conditions then decide if the pay is great enough if not....then you got bad pay....not great pay......

A million bucks is not great pay to get shocked at work every day...it is bad pay.

Of course pay is a mitigating factor...good grief.....lets get real......
Many of us put up with bad jobs if the pay is enough.....the key word is enough..and mitigating.......

Example working in a Coal mine can kill you and kills many people but the pay is mitigating compared to starving to death or freezing to death with no roof over your head.

[sceptic]

Quote

did not say lower pay I said Bad pay....please note my exact words.

Lower pay does not automatically mean worse conditions

Quote

I do not understand why not have free health care as some countries do?
If it is free, how can money or working conditions be a problem? The doctors are free, the nurses are free, the buildings are free, the machinery is free, the medicine is free, the janitors are free,, what is the problem?

nothing is free, who pays for it Mike?

[luke warm]

Quote

nothing is free, who pays for it Mike?

i do believe that's his whole point, wayne

Quote

the main problem is not the salary. It is above average compared with other academics.

well maybe you're right, but they give examples of doctors moving from germany to other countries for in some cases four times the salary... and the quotes from some of the doctors seems to emphasize pay... true, working conditions do appear to be an issue, also

Quote

For independent doctors, what is regulated is the amount they get paid by the public health insurance for each individual treatment, and (that's the more controversial part) a maximum number per quarter for any specific treatment they will get compensated for.

right... that's one downside to state run or sposored health care... as long as some country has a demand and the wherewithal to pay, doctors will find their way there (the better ones, anyway - it's a buyers market)

[the saint]

Should we limit salaries?

Not if its mine...

[mike777]

yes you need to look at total compensation. In Wayne's example he choose the job that gave him the greatest total compensation in his economic value scheme or his Utility curve....

[Gerben42]

I don't know about the doctors but some manager's salaries are just through the roof. It is hard to see how someone's achievement can be so high that he deserves 1000 times as much pay as some of his employees.

[joshs]

mike777, on Jun 27 2006, 04:44 PM, said:

yes you need to look at total compensation. In Wayne's example he choose the job that gave him the greatest total compensation in his economic value scheme or his Utility curve....

Ahh utility curves. Now if you bring up Pareto optimums I would accuse you of talking dirty.

[sceptic]

Quote

Ahh utility curves. Now if you bring up Pareto optimums I would accuse you of talking dirty.

80% of my salary goes to the wife and 20% go to the kids, sigh, I would be happy to work for free

[pclayton]

Yes we limit salaries over on this side of the pond. Its called "minimum wage" .

Oh - you mean limiting the UPPER end?

Well we used to before the upper tax rate was reformed. "Alternative" Minimum Tax (its not an alternative at all) guarantees upper salaries pay taxes; regardless of the legitimate deductions they have.

[Al_U_Card]

I propose that rather than limiting wages that we limit activity....