[mikegill]

Scoring: IMP

1H P ?

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attempt to improve things or take the low road?

[jdonn]

Low road for me. I will want to vomit all over my shoes if partner rebids any amount of hearts, clubs, or notrump.

[luke warm]

jdonn, on Jun 16 2006, 04:19 PM, said:

Low road for me. I will want to vomit all over my shoes if partner rebids any amount of hearts, clubs, or notrump.

yeah, and to make matters worse i usually wear sandals this time of year

[Double !]

[quote name='luke warm' date='Jun 16 2006, 06:33 PM'] [/QUOTE]
yeah, and to make matters worse i usually wear sandals this time of year [/quote]
Jimmy,
ain't that kinda dangerous with all them aleegaters and water mockeesuns around?

DHL

[Walddk]

luke warm, on Jun 17 2006, 01:33 AM, said:

jdonn, on Jun 16 2006, 04:19 PM, said:

Low road for me. I will want to vomit all over my shoes if partner rebids any amount of hearts, clubs, or notrump.

yeah, and to make matters worse i usually wear sandals this time of year

In that case we will never see you at major international championships.

"Team members cannot wear shorts or open-toed sandals".

I can't find anything about vomit, so I guess that's allowed.

Roland

[P_Marlowe]

Pass, my partner still take me serious,
... at least that is what i would like to
believe.

1S isprobably better than 1H, but unfortunately
any bid at the except 1NT would be forcing, and
you dont want to play NT.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[luke warm]

Double !, on Jun 16 2006, 11:47 PM, said:

Jimmy,
ain't that kinda dangerous with all them aleegaters and water mockeesuns around?

DHL

only if you're a tourist.. or a damn yankee

Quote

In that case we will never see you at major international championships.

you'll never see me in one anyway, not as a player.. and it's got nothing to do with clothes

[Free]

Pass, since I suspect a 2♣ or 3♣ rebid where I'll get bigger problems...

[mcphee]

Ok got me, I would respond 1S. Amit to running the risk of hearing an unfavorable rebid, but at the same time I may also hear one that is a great sound, like 4D or even 4S.

If partner rebids 2H, lucky me, at least he has 6! On hands where partner rebids 1NT responding makes you a winner (2C relay to 2D). On the hands where bad things could happen I generally am only 1 level higher.

[mikegill]

Ok so two questions. Firstly, lets say you respond a spade and partner makes probably the worst call for you, 2C. I think it's not necessarily bad if he bids any number of hearts (except maybe 4), or if he bids 3C (he could be 1534 or 3514 in my dreams anyway). Now what? Pass, or correct to 2H and prepare to resume previous vomiting state if partner bids on?

Secondly, in the same session I held ♠KJxxx ♥x ♦Jxxxxx ♣x, this time first seat all red. P P 1H P ?. This hand is clearly better, since you actually have a K, and in spades. Is this good enough for the majority to respond?

[P_Marlowe]

mikegill, on Jun 18 2006, 11:25 AM, said:

Secondly, in the same session I held ♠KJxxx ♥x ♦Jxxxxx ♣x, this time first seat all red. P P 1H P ?. This hand is clearly better, since you actually have a K, and in spades. Is this good enough for the majority to respond?

Of course.

1S is clear cut.

Over 2C I bid 2H.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mikegill]

I think it's possible there are a few hidden advantages to bidding 1S on the first hand. Firstly, I think you are less likely to get doubled. If you pass 1H, and it goes X P P ?, are you sitting for 1HX? Certainly, you are guessing whether or not you bid or pass, since spades or diamonds could definitely be better. Nevermind the possibility that partner takes it out himself to 2C, which would certainly be bad. Personally I would much rather be playing 2C or 2H undoubled as opposed to any doubled contract where I didn't know partner had support for one of my suits. When was the last time you saw a double after 1H - 1S - 2C - P? They are red too and don't want to climb into a misfit auction, and your side could definitely have 24 HCP and be wrapping 3C on them.
In other words, if you bid 1S it makes it very difficult for the opponents to get in the auction. This does mean it's difficult for them to double, and heck, if they have some kind of club fit they could even be cold for 3NT. Even if partner does something bad and jump shifts to 3C, say, are the opponents ever going to double your final contract? Hardly ever, since both of you are sort of unlimited. You may be in a bad contract, but at least you're there undoubled. Granted you are red, but they're probably getting a negative score with your cards at the other table, so it's not a disaster.
Finally, lets say you pass 1H and something good happens. The opponents bid 2C instead of doubling and let you out. You're still not home free or anything. Partner is still in there and with 6+ hearts he may compete and get doubled, since he'll probably play you for not the worst hand you could possibly have. Or say partner passes but RHO raises to 3C. If they have only 8, you probably want to pass, but if they have 9 or 10, 3C and 3D (3S) could easily be cold and now you're losing the part score battle. Point is that you're guessing again, and guessing is bad. Anyway, what do people think?

[hatchett]

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Firstly, I think you are less likely to get doubled. If you pass 1H, and it goes X P P ?, are you sitting for 1HX?

Passing out 1♥ X would be sadistic, it is clear to run.

[jdonn]

So you don't pass out of fear of going for a number? That seems a little pessimistic, and presumptuous. The least of my worries is 1H p p X p p, it is obvious to run and I really don't think I'll get hurt in 2D if we ultimately end up there. I'd rather risk 2DX than 4H undoubled.

[mike777]

I think responding on zero or close to zero makes much more sense when you are void in a minor opening bid and you have a 5 card major, see Kokish articles in the ACBL magazine. I note he plays Mexican 2D so that takes some strong balanced or semibalanced hands out of your one minor opening bids.

[whereagles]

Pass, unless I'm in the mood of gambling.

[mikegill]

jdonn, on Jun 20 2006, 10:18 AM, said:

So you don't pass out of fear of going for a number?

No, I don't pass beacuse I'm taking my shot at improving the contract. I think probably just the fact that you might improve the contract is approximately cancelled out by the fact that you are more likely to make it worse. I don't think 1H is making, and it could easily be down several. If I bid, I might turn a -200 or -300 into +110 (win 7 or 9). If I'm really lucky I *might* turn it into +620 (yeah right). If I'm wrong, I might turn a +80 into -100, or -100 into -200 or even -300, which are lose 5 or maybe only 3. In the partner bids 4H scenario, I'm turning +110 into -200 or +140 into -100, but that seems rather unlikely. In general, you stand to win more than you lose, but you will almost certainly lose more frequently than you win. On the balance, I'm not sure whether the frequency of losing is just too high, hence why I posted this hand in the first place. My last post was just pointing out that maybe this other advantage tips the balance in favor of bidding instead of passing. In general, when in doubt, bidding is almost always better than passing.

At matchpoints, I think bidding is clearly a losing action, because the most likely thing to happen is probably for partner to bid either 2C or 2H, and in either case you would rather be in 1H, and -200 instead of -100 might be a big difference in scores, particularly if the opponents can make 110 or 120, should they stumble into the bidding.

[jdonn]

1) You seem to be forgetting the main reason to pass. The opponents will usually just bid something and you are home free. Bidding can turn that -200 into -300 which seems like no big deal (I am generously ignorring your flawed assumption that you are less likely to be doubled in your final contract after responding), but passing turns it into +100 when the opponents bid on what they don't realize is this big misfit.

2) Even when you pass and the opponents bid and now partner rebids 2♥ or 2♣ or something, he is pulling it in a notch. 1♥ p p 1NT 2♥ shows a similar hand to 1♥ p 1♠ p 3♥.

3) You can get your diamonds in more easily by passing, thereby avoiding disaster. Compare 1♥ p 1♠ p 2♣ p ? to 1♥ p p X 2♣ p ?

4) Your example auction a couple posts back shows you passing partner's 2♣ rebid? So now you increased the level only to get to a 4-1 instead of 5-1 fit. You turned -100 into -400 or something along those lines. Or you can go back to hearts and watch partner take a third bid.

5) You will never turn anything into +110. If it goes 1♥ p 1♠ p 2♠, the opponents have along the lines of 24 with 10 clubs or so.

[mikegill]

Quote

1) You seem to be forgetting the main reason to pass. The opponents will usually just bid something and you are home free.

Maybe it depends on the opponents, but I really don't think they will "usually" bid. What's the main factor in determining whether to bid in balancing seat. Length in the opponents' suit. At least 90% of the time the opponents have 6 or 7 hearts between them. If LHO has 4 or 5, he will not be in a hurry to balance even if he has a very good hand. He knows his partner couldn't act and is short in hearts. If he has 2 he will likely act, but what will that action be? Some people auto double here, and I might double even if I held 5 clubs (unless they were really chunky) as long as I held 3 spades. And if he doubles with 2, it's faily likely the double will be passed by the guy who has at least 4 hearts, and probably 5, and likely a decent hand. If LHO has 3 hearts, then he might make some action other than pass or double. 1NT is a possibility, but nobody is in a hurry to get to 1NT at all red, since if you're making 1NT then 1H is probably going down, so why not take your + in 1H. He would need to have a hand that was worried about missing game if he passed. And even some of these hands might double if too strong for whatever balancing NT range they happen to be playing. Even if they balance with 1NT, or double then 1NT by RHO, I'm not really expecting to beat 1NT, so I'm still going minus.

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3) You can get your diamonds in more easily by passing

This is certainly true, and if my diamonds had more intermediates I would be more concerned about this. Partner will probably think Hx of diamonds is a good holding, and you could still have 3 losers.

Quote

4) Your example auction a couple posts back shows you passing partner's 2♣ rebid? So now you increased the level only to get to a 4-1 instead of 5-1 fit. You turned -100 into -400 or something along those lines. Or you can go back to hearts and watch partner take a third bid.

I agree completely, this is certainly the biggest flaw in bidding 1S on this hand, and might be enough by itself to make bidding wrong.

Quote

5) You will never turn anything into +110. If it goes 1♥ p 1♠ p 2♠, the opponents have along the lines of 24 with 10 clubs or so.

Well certainly you will sometimes get +110. The opponents are red, and sometimes you just can't balance. People raise on 3 spades in this auction for lack of better rebids, so it's not completely an auto-balance auction. You also might get +100 from 3C or +140 from 3S, which could certainly be making if the opponents have 9+ clubs. Heck even -100 or -110 could be a win against 1H.


Anyway, I did bid 1S at the table. Although I'm not really defending my choice so much as playing devil's advocate a bit since nobody else is really sticking up for it. I suspect from people's responses that bidding is probably a 40/60ish action in the long run. The type of thing that's a good bid to make when you're swinging a bit to come from behind. It certainly could be a winner, and is unlikely to be a huge loser. At the table, partner bid the 2C I deserved to hear. I actually bid 1S and passed 2C quickly at the table, which may or may not have been the right thing to do, but at least I didn't actually look like I needed to vomit. Partner was 2605 with a good 13ish, and 2C went -200, whereas 1H is certainly making and 2H might make (cards are lying favorably for your side). At the other table, a very good player bid 1S also with my cards, but for some reason his partner bid 2H instead of 2C, which made. I wouldn't have minded losing the IMPs to somebody who passed 1H, or even who corrected 2C to 2H, which I might have done as well. But that was kind of annoying.

[mike777]

mikegill, on Jun 20 2006, 12:28 PM, said:

Quote

1) You seem to be forgetting the main reason to pass. The opponents will usually just bid something and you are home free.

Maybe it depends on the opponents, but I really don't think they will "usually" bid. What's the main factor in determining whether to bid in balancing seat. Length in the opponents' suit. At least 90% of the time the opponents have 6 or 7 hearts between them. If LHO has 4 or 5, he will not be in a hurry to balance even if he has a very good hand. He knows his partner couldn't act and is short in hearts. If he has 2 he will likely act, but what will that action be? Some people auto double here, and I might double even if I held 5 clubs (unless they were really chunky) as long as I held 3 spades. And if he doubles with 2, it's faily likely the double will be passed by the guy who has at least 4 hearts, and probably 5, and likely a decent hand. If LHO has 3 hearts, then he might make some action other than pass or double. 1NT is a possibility, but nobody is in a hurry to get to 1NT at all red, since if you're making 1NT then 1H is probably going down, so why not take your + in 1H. He would need to have a hand that was worried about missing game if he passed. And even some of these hands might double if too strong for whatever balancing NT range they happen to be playing. Even if they balance with 1NT, or double then 1NT by RHO, I'm not really expecting to beat 1NT, so I'm still going minus.

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3) You can get your diamonds in more easily by passing

This is certainly true, and if my diamonds had more intermediates I would be more concerned about this. Partner will probably think Hx of diamonds is a good holding, and you could still have 3 losers.

Quote

4) Your example auction a couple posts back shows you passing partner's 2♣ rebid? So now you increased the level only to get to a 4-1 instead of 5-1 fit. You turned -100 into -400 or something along those lines. Or you can go back to hearts and watch partner take a third bid.

I agree completely, this is certainly the biggest flaw in bidding 1S on this hand, and might be enough by itself to make bidding wrong.

Quote

5) You will never turn anything into +110. If it goes 1♥ p 1♠ p 2♠, the opponents have along the lines of 24 with 10 clubs or so.

Well certainly you will sometimes get +110. The opponents are red, and sometimes you just can't balance. People raise on 3 spades in this auction for lack of better rebids, so it's not completely an auto-balance auction. You also might get +100 from 3C or +140 from 3S, which could certainly be making if the opponents have 9+ clubs. Heck even -100 or -110 could be a win against 1H.


Anyway, I did bid 1S at the table. Although I'm not really defending my choice so much as playing devil's advocate a bit since nobody else is really sticking up for it. I suspect from people's responses that bidding is probably a 40/60ish action in the long run. The type of thing that's a good bid to make when you're swinging a bit to come from behind. It certainly could be a winner, and is unlikely to be a huge loser. At the table, partner bid the 2C I deserved to hear. I actually bid 1S and passed 2C quickly at the table, which may or may not have been the right thing to do, but at least I didn't actually look like I needed to vomit. Partner was 2605 with a good 13ish, and 2C went -200, whereas 1H is certainly making and 2H might make (cards are lying favorably for your side). At the other table, a very good player bid 1S also with my cards, but for some reason his partner bid 2H instead of 2C, which made. I wouldn't have minded losing the IMPs to somebody who passed 1H, or even who corrected 2C to 2H, which I might have done as well. But that was kind of annoying.

If they bid 1h=1s=2h at the other table is sounds like they are playing my strong club canape system lol

1h=limited....4+hearts longer side suit often
1s=weakish 2+spades
2h=6+h and 4+clubs.

btw how does one quote in a box only part of a post and then post a reply to it? I seem only able to quote the entire post?