[mike777]

Interesting reading about HR4777 which would lump bridge in with poker and outlaw internet money bridge. It may also outlaw paying an entry fee and gambling for masterpoints online depending on how you read it.

Here is a link to read the entire bill and to read other articles.

http://hr4777.com/

Click below and then on June 2006 issue.

http://www.acbldistrict23.org/Bridge%20New...idge%20news.htm

[uday]

(I moved this to the watercooler)

All of us would welcome some clarity on this issue.

[hrothgar]

uday, on Jun 3 2006, 02:45 AM, said:

(I moved this to the watercooler)

All of us would welcome some clarity on this issue.

Its always dangerous to for non-lawyers to try to interprete what formal documents like HR4777 mean. However, I don't believe that the laws would have any impact on masterpoints.

In theory, Masterpoints recognize "achievement". The fees that are associated with tournaments that offer Masterpoints are designed to cover the costs of administering the system. I think that the Law would recognize a clear distinction between tournaments that "only" offer Masterpoints and ones that use gate proceeds to create cash prizes.

If the regulation were to pass, I suspect that BBO's Money Bridge Tournaments would be illegal in the US, as would many tournaments like BBO Italia's. The ACBL shouldn't have much trouble.

[fred]

hrothgar, on Jun 2 2006, 11:56 PM, said:

uday, on Jun 3 2006, 02:45 AM, said:

(I moved this to the watercooler)

All of us would welcome some clarity on this issue.

Its always dangerous to for non-lawyers to try to interprete what formal documents like HR4777 mean. However, I don't believe that the laws would have any impact on masterpoints.

In theory, Masterpoints recognize "achievement". The fees that are associated with tournaments that offer Masterpoints are designed to cover the costs of administering the system. I think that the Law would recognize a clear distinction between tournaments that "only" offer Masterpoints and ones that use gate proceeds to create cash prizes.

If the regulation were to pass, I suspect that BBO's Money Bridge Tournaments would be illegal in the US, as would many tournaments like BBO Italia's. The ACBL shouldn't have much trouble.

I have not read HR4777 (nor do I plan to - that's what lawyers are for), but I suspect that if and when a bill like this passes I would guess that there would be some kind of exemption for games that can demonstrated as being predominantly skill-based. I could be naive to believe this, but I suspect the main reason HR4777 has any support at all is because some people in congress believe that gambling is immoral (especially forms of gambling for which they are not receiving a cut). My guess is that skill-based games wil not be considered forms of "gambling".

I have no doubt that, if necessary, we could convince the appropriate people that MBTs are skill-based games. If necessary we could even modify the software to increase the skill element (like always making the human declarer, giving South the same sequence of hands while randomizing the other 39 cards, making these tournaments longer...). Probably we will eventually do some of these things regardless of what happens with HR4777.

Agree with Hrothgar that it is dangerous for non-lawyers to speculate about such things, but the above makes sense to me and the opinions I have sought from lawyers have supported this position. Unfortunately it also seems to be dangerous these days to expect the USA government to be sensible.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[mike777]

Well for another point of view I think it is of the utmost importance that nonlawyers discuss, debate and speculate on laws or possible laws. It is very dangerous to leave this stuff to lawyers. Non lawyers need to understand what the Law says and means. Non lawyers need to weigh in with their opinions.

Keep in mind in the USA nonlawyers write and pass the law. Keeping the law for only Lawyers will ultimately lead to disrespect and disregard for the Law.

[hrothgar]

mike777, on Jun 3 2006, 03:25 AM, said:

Keep in mind in the USA nonlawyers write and pass the law. Keeping the law for only Lawyers will ultimately lead to disrespect and disregard for the Law.

36% of all congressmen and 53 percent of senator's are lawyers

reference from http://www.yourcongr...article_id=1671

[asdfg2k]

Quote

‘‘‘‘(6) The term ‘bets or wagers’—(A) means the staking or risking by any
person of something of value upon the outcome
of a contest of others, a sporting event, or a
game predominantly subject to chance, upon an
agreement or understanding that the person or
another person will receive something of greater
value than the amount staked or risked in the
event of a certain outcome;

a) Money Bridge isn't a contest of others
It isn't a sporting event (now, aren't we glad that it never made it into the Olympics?)
c) and it isn't, in my not so humble opinion, a game PREDOMINANTLY subject to chance.

I agree with Fred that clarification will no doubt come through which defines any tweaks that may be necessary in order to conform, but I would expect conformance to be achievable.

The more interesting question is whether the drafters of the law think that poker is a game which is or is not predominantly subject to chance.

[Al_U_Card]

hrothgar, on Jun 2 2006, 07:48 PM, said:

36% of all congressmen and 53 percent of senator's are lawyers

and the rest are liars?

Popular opinion IS the source of the law. The people make the law. The government enacts them in the people's name and the judiciary enforces them. After this utopian vision is shaken down to its rather dystopic reality, we need to discuss and debate these kinds of things to get public opinion mobilized so that the legislators will do what we want them to. They may be lawyers and liars but they are our representatives and it is up to us to ensure that they remain beholden to us and no others.

[Gerben42]

I would be surprised if this kind of thing would pass, since the USA would be shooting themselves in the foot. At the moment online gambling and online poker (in my opinion two completely different things as poker is a game of skill) are big business.

[barmar]

Gerben42, on Jun 4 2006, 04:01 AM, said:

I would be surprised if this kind of thing would pass, since the USA would be shooting themselves in the foot. At the moment online gambling and online poker (in my opinion two completely different things as poker is a game of skill) are big business.

Yes, they're big business. But I think they're predominantly operated off-shore, so they don't benefit the US economy, and the US government doesn't receive any tax revenue. So the government has little incentive to keep them going, and the Christian Right's wish to control vices takes precedence.