[Orla]

(I wrote this as a reply to a message on carding. I then saw that I was over in the "advanced/expert" sector, so I took it over to the beginner's string. : )

Sometimes carding/signals are difficult (for me) to read/see/implement.

If someone were starting out, what would be the most basic things s/he  would need to know?

I (try to) play Laventhal. I think that is pretty basic....

I would be thrilled if someone could explain, in simple terms, about 3rds and 5ths.

Orla

[the hog]

Signalling is probably one of the most difficult things in the game and even many experts get it wrong - often.
You will get differing opinions as to what is the most important thing to show - some people believe you should always give count -(in normal count, high/low shows an even number). Some believe that showing where your strength lies is more important,(you can play that a high card shows strength in that suit, or you can play that an odd numbered card encourages). The problem is you really need to know whether you want to encourage or not and depending on the hand, this may be difficult to determine. Some players play the totally opposite of this. (See, I said it was confusing).

Best is to start off with something simple, like always give count or always give attitude and most importantly ensure that you and your partner are doing the same thing. I have seen more arguments at the table about signals than anything else. When you are comfortable with what you are doing, you might want to consider playing count on the opposition's cards and attitude on yours.

One thing you may see on people's profiles is UDCA. This stands for upside down count and attitude. Put simply this is the opposite of what most players consider normal - high low shows an odd number of cards and a low card encourages rather than discourages - hence Upside Down Count and Attitude. Again there are arguments as to whether this is superior to standard methods and no real conclusions have been reached one way or another. UDCA is more commonly played in Europe than in the US.

3rd and 5ths refers to a method of leading. Normally most players lead their 4th highest from length. Playing 3rds and 5ths you lead the 3rd highest from 4 cards, otherwise the 5th highest. Lots of studies have been done to determine  which method is superior and again people differ. I have played both and see no major advantage for one method as opposed to the other.
Note though that if you play 3rd and 5th leads, the rule of 11 changes to become the rule of 12 and 10.

(Rule of 11 - subtract the pip of the card led by your partner from 11. This tells you the number of cards higher than the one led by your partner in your hand and in the opponent's hands. You can see dummy and of course you can see higher cards in your own hand, so you now how many declarer has. Sorry if you already know all of this, but I just thought I'd make sure).

[jjsb]

the_hog said already a lot and i bet Inquiry will maybe add some little things if he has time . As for me well just to add, and it's very important, that a signalisation (whatever u choose , u must agree with your partner and play same things that's all ) IS NOT AN OBLIGATION . What i mean there , is when u discard , u give information to partner , defense is really that , declrer see both hand , defenders don't , it's why they must find ways to give information but it's not because ur partner  show u have better cards in one colour that u must play there . I know so many players even good one (at least there where i play) that , when see a discard a 2 a 3 a 6 ... will play immediately something explainign to partner when it wasn't good "u play this card , u ask me to play this colour" . No defense it's not that (or else there will be no problem ) it's much more complicated and it's a combination of many factor , how declarer play , what card my pd play , what are my options , count points etc... it's , for far , the most difficult things in Bridge . I bet u can find quite a lot of excellent declarer , u'll find  very few excellent defender ...

regards
syl

[Codo]

Dear Syl,

I cannot disagree more. If you agree about a signalling method, it surely is an obligation to ALWAYS follow this method.
Especially as this is the threat for beginners.

Later, you may get to know the small parts in defence, when it is better not  to signal or to false card. But  this is when you have the playing strength of Meckwell or maybe better.  

There are six main purposes for always signalling:

1. It is simple right to give your pd informations, your score will easily improve.

2. You get used to signal anytime and don`t get lasy about it.

3. You always win the post mortem

4. If you are used to a simple method (like always count, or always attitude) you are able to improve and change your system to a more difficult and better one.

5. If you always signal, your partners will trust your carding.

6. And there is no loss: If you play against beginners, they have much to do as a declarer, they will often have too many duties to recognize and think about your signals.

Besides: I have played some hands. Of course, it is better for the declarer to get signals from his opponents. But the advantage is much less then the advatage I have from my pds signals.

Kind Regards

Roland

[inquiry]

Since JJSB suggested I might comment, I will. I agree with most of The_Hog's answers.

First what I like to play most (I play all)
  UDCA
  2nd/4th best leads (!) (what another one??)
  attitude, count, suit preference signals
  Some special honor sequence leads
  trump echos
  And with some partners upside down smith echo

Second, for my opinions of UDCA, I think it does have a slight technical advantage over standard carding. Maybe we can start a thread just on comparing the merits of one particular optiion (like UDCA versus "standard" versus maybe O/E also known as roman).

Third, I already covered my views on 2nd/4th best leads in a thread started by EASY in the Advanced/Expert forum entitled "Opening leads of Low from 2nd and 4th".

Fourth... when playing so many what does a particular card mean? Is it attitude, suit preference, or count? Most signals I give on a hand is count, but ususally the very first signal is attitude. What do I mean?

When the are playing a suit, I generally give count. When partner leads a suit, I generallly give attidute, discards or second spot card in a suit are generally suit preference signals.  None of these are absolute. That is, I try to give the signal partner needs to see. If I think a continuation of the suit partner just lead is never going to right, and FROM Dummy and bidding, partner knows this, then I GIVE suit preference, not attitdue.

If partner KNOWS how many cards I have is a suit, for sure, from the way I bid, then the card I play if spot is generally suit preference. This is fairly rare when playing standard, but playing Mulderber for instance, if I open 2S or 2H, I have EXACTLY 5 cards... so giving count is just silly.

If you give frequent suit preference signals, then sometimes you simply have to play a card and you have no suit preference. If your partner is going to believe every card you play convey;s suit preference signals, then you will get some very bad shifts from him from holdings he should not lead from. So try to find a sequence of plays that either cancels the alleged preference or play a card that give a suit preference that your partner can obviously see can not be a real suit preference.

Giving count. Sometimes you try to win the first lead of a suit (or in fact play high and do win). Obviously, you gave no attitude, suit preference or count signal. In this case, the second time I play to this suit, I generally try to give count. The way I do this is with REMAINING count signal. That is if I had an even number of cards originally, when I give count on the next round of the suit, I give remaing count (showing odd number of cards remaining) rather than ORIGINAL count showing even number to start with. This is not standard I thiink, but makes more sense to me.  This has to do with returns, for instance... if I had A432 and partner leads the suit, and I win ACE.... if I return the suit, I return the 3 from 432 because I play 2nd/4th leads. so 2nd from 432 is 3. If I held Q82 and partner leads the suit... and I play the QUEEN to force the KING. On the next round, I play the 2 showing an even number of cards remining (I play UDCA) rather than the 8 (to show originally 3 cards).

LASTLY, sometimes it is perfectly acceptable, even necessary, to lie to your partner with signals. Sometimes because a little white lie will surely get a specific defense you can see that will be the winning line. Sometimes because you know from the bidding and your hand, that your partner will not be participating in the defense, so giving a signal only can help declearer. And sometimes, a false count against a declearer who watches such things, is the only way to try to presuade him from a winning line. False signals, sadly, do no good against novices and most beginners, as they don't realize you are trying to give a signal in the first place... but intermediate who has learned signalling well, you can usually lead them astray with such a ploy.  

Now, what should beginners play? I think this...
1)  Attitude on partners lead - unless very obvious switch needed
2)  Count on declearers lead
3)  Lavinthal or O/E discards
4)  Trump echo only with ruff ready to go

If you like, you might make one exception to 1... on lead of KING by partner you could decide to always give count. Then partner, with AK wanting count (say against slam) could start King, and if wanting attitude, could start ACE, as an example.

Good luck.. figuring out what signals you want to use regularly and experimenting with a few others, will give you a lot of new enjoyment to the game while on defense that you may have been missing until you start using such carding.

Ben

[pbleighton]

Very general question:

Similar to bidding, what do you assume about signalling when playing online with a pickup partner:

1) For self-described advanced and expert players
(for me, an academic question!)

and

2) For other players

[inquiry]

Quote

Very general question:

Similar to bidding, what do you assume about signalling when playing online with a pickup partner:

1) For self-described advanced and expert players
(for me, an academic question!)

and

2) For other players

For Advanced/Expert players, I don't assume... I always ask, generally with something like this....

inquiry UDCA or standard? 3/5 or 2/4?

That is it.

With other players, I generally ask if they are marked as intermediate. When I play with beginners or novice, I assume they give attitude only. No count, no suit preference, no trump echo, no smith echo. I  also assume they play standard signals (high encourage, low discourage).

What if they have no profile what so ever, I choose not to play with people with absolutely no profile information. But if they list their system (but no skill level), I will play, and ask them too...  

[Laird]

Hi Orla
I think it was Gerardo who reminded me of a signalling system called " Revolving Lavinthal " where a small club meant a spade, a high club adiamond, a small diamond meant a club, a high diamond meant a heart etc..... I do not see it being played very often is there a reason for this? It seemed a simple enough system.
Could someone please explain trump echo and Smith echo and Meckwell as I am not familiar with the terms.

regards

John

[inquiry]

Hi John,

I can't help you with the Meckwell signal. I know that Jeff Meckstrroth and Eric Rodwell devised a bidding system konw as Meckwell (made from a combination of their last names), but I am unaware of a signal with this same name.

Smith Echo is a defense signal either partner can use against a NT contract. When declearer first attacks a suit after getting in. Both partners can signal their attitude for the initial suit lead. Low-high I don't like first suit lead, hi-low I do like it. Some people play reverse smith echo.

Trump ECHO is play high low in trumps when declearer pulls them. This is most often used to show three trumps.... and some people only use trump echo when they can ruff something. Also, trump echo is very useful when you actually in a ruffing situation, so your partner knows you have yet another trump remaining.

Some people play a trump echo as a suit preference kind of signal. Where a hi-low in trumps suggest values in a higher suit, while low-high suggest values in a lower suit.

[Cave_Draco]

"Revolving Lavinthal" is a bit of an oxymoron!

Lavinthal discards are based upon the discard of a high card asks for the higher-ranking suit, the discard of a low card asks for the lower ranking suit.

Revolving discards are based upon the discard of a high card asks for the higher suit, the discard of a low card asks for the lower suit.

Pretty similar? BUT...

Both the suit discarded and the suit led (or trumps) are excluded!

So, in Lavinthal discards... if I want a Spade, I have to discard a high card; in revolving discards, I can ask for a Spade lead by discarding high from one suit or low from the other.

As clear as mud, (I dislike MUD,  ) an example?

Opps play 3NT, P clears D & runs his/her D; we have 4 tricks, I get to discard on the last D?

Playing Lavinthal, I can ask for a Spade by discarding a high H/C; I can ask for a Heart by discarding a high S or low C; I can ask for a Club by discarding a low S/H.

Playing Revolving, I can ask for a Spade by discarding a high H or a low C; I can ask for a Heart by discarding a high C or a low S; I can ask for a Club by discarding a low H or a high S.

P.S. Since you can, with Revolving discards, always give a suit preference with a low card... you can play a high discard as a "demand" that P lead either the suit requested or the suit discarded, according to partnership preference,  .