[Cascade]

Hi

I am considering a simple scheme of transfer advances after:

1. Their Takeout Double

2. Their Overcall

3. Our Overcall

I would welcome your comments:

1. Their Takeout Double

4-suit transfers

e.g after 1D (X)

1H = spades
1S = clubs
2C = diamonds either standard raise to 2D or some stronger raises
2D = hearts

2. and 3. Overcalls

Three suit transfer (do not transfer into our suit)

- simple raise is standard

- transfer into their suit is a cue-raise

- transfer (bid of the suit) 'below' our suit is equivalent to transfer into
the immediately higher suit

e.g. after 1D (1S)

2C = hearts (suit above our suit)
2D = simple raise
2H = cue-raise
2S = clubs

TIA

Wayne

[inquiry]

Quote

Hi

I am considering a simple scheme of transfer advances after:

1. Their Takeout Double

2. Their Overcall

3. Our Overcall

Hi Wayne,

Transfer advances are very useful, but don't get too carried away too quickly with them. I play a simplified version of them.

OVER THEIR TAKEOUT DBL AT ONE LEVEL
First, I play them after 1 bid and opponent's takeout double. These "transfer advances" start at 1NT in both case, and go up to one minus the suit opened. Thes range from four transfer bids starting with a one spade opening:
1S-(X)-?
1NT is transfer to 2C
2C is transfer to 2D
2D is transfer to 2H
2H is TRANSFER TO 2S, constructive raise or better
2S is weak raise (since 2H not used

Down to just one transfer bid if bidding starts with 1C:
1C - (x) - ?
1NT - transfer to 2C, "good raise"
2C - weak club raise.

Bids above partner suit over dbl are "fit jumps"

I think you are missing the boat if you don't "transfer" into the suit your partner opened so you can separate the good raise from the junk LOTT raise.

OVER THEIR NEGATIVE DOUBLE UP TO 2H
The next place I play transfer advances is over a negative double after our overcall. The transfers start with a REDOUBLE, which is transfer to the next higher suit, and go from there (here I use 1NT as natural). I use four transfers, with transfer into partner suit as good raise and simple raise as blocking.

In one partnership, I also play transfer advances after our overcall, starting at the level of the suit they opened, and ending at one less than the suit partner opened.... thus,

(1H)-2C-(P)-
2D is natural
2H is transfer to 2S
2S is sound club raise
3C is "noise" kind of raise

(1C)-1S-P-?
1NT is natural
2C is transfer to 2D
2D is transfer to 2H
2H is "sound" raise
2S is "noisey raise

All of my transfer advances serve three purposes,
1) they stay low enough to allow fit jumps,
2) they separate good raise from blocking raise
3) they tend to deny support if transfer not into
partner's suit.

This stucture has worked well for me, and allowed me the freedom to raise on junk without getting partner overly excited. That fits my style.

Ben

[Cascade]

Ben

I am not sure about giving up a natural 1NT?

Do you not find this a problem?

Wayne

[inquiry]

Quote

Ben

I am not sure about giving up a natural 1NT?

Do you not find this a problem?

Wayne

No. The reason why is that with a flat hand, no fit, no good suit, I find it very useful to combine the pass and redouble into an effective weapon. Let's take the intial dbl, for instance...

1D-(x)-P-(1H)-P-(2H)-X, or
1D=(x)=P-(2H)// P-(P)-X

I play both these Pass then double as "optional", showing a balanced hand, no real fit. Just the sort of hand that showed up a little earlier today in another thread where Free simply redboubled to show 9+ points and no fit.

And remeber, this is basically the only auction where you lose a natural 1NT... on (1H)-1S-(neg DBL), my 1NT is natural. And after partner overcall, my transfer advances start at the two level in their suit, so again 1NT is natural.

So all you really lose in giving up this 1NT is on hands that:
a) lack fit for partners suit
lack goodish suit of your own, and
c) will not have enough to make optional dbl of opp

Guess, what, maybe you should not be bidding with that hand anyway... :-). And besides, partner still has a chance to make another call after the dbl, and you surely will get another chance too. So far, I have not missed the ability to make the natural 1NT, and I have gotten some nice penalties when the opponents walked into it, each thinking the other had a little extra.

[DrTodd13]

With several partners I play over 1H-(X):

XX - spades
1S - clubs
1N - nat
2C - diamonds
2D - constructive heart raise
2H - crap heart raise

Over 1S-(X):

XX - clubs
1N - nat
2C - diamonds
2D - hearts
2H - constructive spade raise
2S - crap spade raise

I've also tried to play similar stuff over (1Y)-X-P but in
most cases have given that up due to the inability to
show clubs at the two level. There could be a solution
here but haven't thought about it all that much. The
straightforward one-meaning-per-bid system doesn't
have enough space to show what you want to show
and also stay as low as possible when responder has
crap opposite the T/O X.

[Dean]

Hi

I response to an overcall I play Jeff Ruben's transfer advances. Transfers start at 2 of openers suit. So

1H : (2C) : NB : ?

2D = Natural
2H = spades
2S = Good club raise
2N = natural
3C = weaker club raise.
3D = Fit showing/splinter etc - you choose.

Its important that NT bids be natural to rightside contracts. You can define "new suits" as forcing or non forcing depending on your style.

Note that this leaves a hole in the system. Balancedish hands with say 11+ HCP and bad two card support which used to use an Unassuming cue are now hard to bid.

Overall thou a vast improvement. I don't think I'd want to play transfers in response to an opener bind and then intervention. Didn't Bergen suggest soemthing called switch where the meaning of bids changed e.g.

1C : (1S) : ?
X = club raise
2C = 4+ hearts i.e negative.


Dean

[inquiry]

Here is another one I have been experimenting with in bidding practices. Earlier, I mentioned two oddities of my bidding (adopted from Robson/Segal books):

First, if I make a "negative double" at the one level, it denies four cards in a higher ranking suit. Thus 1C-(1H)-DBL, my double denies 4S and shows support for diamonds. Second, over a takeout dbl of a natural 1 bid, I play 1NT as transfer to 2C, and higher bids as transfers up to 1 minus the suit opened. The suit below the opened suit is a "sound" raise over the dbl and the direct raise is "weak".

This brought me to the auction 1C-(1D). Now there are host of ways to raise clubs. Since a dbl here still denies four card major (or you could use this as the exception auction and promise both majors, but I still iike dbl denies), 1NT transfers to 2C, 2C direct raise, jump to 3C, a 2D cue bid, and presumably you could use a jump to 2NT as well if you wanted. And of course, I still use fit jumps.

This turns out to be fairly useful if you have a wide ranging 1C opening bid. Here is what I am currently using, but I am looking for advice.

1C - (1D) - ?
DBL - shows constructive club support or better
1NT - game forcing raise (like 1C-P-2C in 2/1 inv minor)
2C - weak 4 card raise
2D - Limit raise in clubs (less than 1NT-relay in str)
2NT - very preemptive raise five/six card raise
3C - Preemptive raise but better than 2NT
Jumps new suit - fit jumps

This is similiar to how I play 1C-(x), where I use 2NT as very premptive, 3C normal preemptive, 1NT-constructive raise or better, 2C as weak raise.

[the hog]

Ben, what about:
X = t/f to H
1H = t/f to S
1S = t/f to NT , balanced
1NT = t/f to C GF
Rest as you have described

Ron

[mishovnbg]

Hi all!
I discussed transfer responses to overcalls. Thre is 2 different considerations:
First: To play from better hand. Normally such is stronger one. But in case of opp opening or intervention is better if he lead. This mean if you after opp you must bid by transfer, if not - natural. This mean to play natural as answer of p overcall.
Second: Principle of useful bidding space. (J. Rubens, do you have this book, I am very interested to know more about?). Transfers give you more bidding space by sacrificing cheapest natural bid. I like them very much, because they perfectly fits with my system without intervention and my overcalls, because they deny 4 major.
Hi Dean!
You have holes in your way to play transfer responses. What do you bid with bal hand and no stop and no fit? What do you bid with DI suit and strong hand without fit?

Here is my scheme of transfer responses to overcalls:
(1SP)-2HE-p-?
2SP: inv hand without fit and stop in SP or CL suit
2NT: nat, no fit
3CL: DI suit, no fit
3DI: inv raise+, 3+fit
3HE: preemtive raise, 3+ fit
3SP: ask for stop with solid CL/DI suit, no fit

(1SP)-2CL-p-?
2DI/2HE: nat,5+,nf
2SP: inv hand without fit and stop in SP or CL fit
2NT: nat, no fit
3CL: peemptive raise
3DI/HE: gf, nat, 5+
3SP: ask for stop with solid DI/HE suit, no fit

Note: Over 2 way 2SP transfer your p bid 2NT with min and stop or 3CL with min and without stop

Hi Ron!
Using 1NT as unnatural bid is great lose, because 1NT contract is very often and you win if you first bid it, despite make or down 1. Bidding CL suit by NT transfer is worse, because you can lose right handed 3NT contract. Only exception is if it is for sure sign off, but in such case is vaste of bid. Much better is to use 1NT as nat and 1SP as 2 way transfer - for NT witout stop or CL suit/fit constructive.

Hi Ben!
1NT can be from wrong side, even if gf. 2CL weak raise, even 3 preemptive raise most of cases only help to opps - look last bermuda bowl fantoni-nunes by raising 1CL-dbl-3CL only push opps to game at 4HE. Far more useful is natural 2NT inv here, because dbl didnt show suit for lead and opp is in "sandwich" and 3NT is often makeable with underlimit values. Shortly many more useful meaning of bids here, despite I also like fit style of bidding.

Misho

[inquiry]

Ron!

I play something very similar to that on the auction where partner overcalls and the next hand makes a NEGATIVE DBL. Here I play RDBL as transfer, and new suits as transfer.

Having said that, I am not having trouble with the way I bid now. So I am not ready to switch over to all transfers all the time. The problem I have (had before this recent change) is trying to separate between, weak, weaker and strong, stronger support on the following auction...

1C-(1D)-??

This is because unlike the rest of the know world, my DBL showed clubs. Others would bid, say 1H or dbl then bid hearts to separate between hands of various stregth. I go through XYZ convention with hearts, so this is not a problem. But separating between game forcing, strong game invite, moderate hand semi-balanced, weak but fairish suit, and totally broke weak support was a problem. Now I can handle these hands...

S-x H-AJT D-KQx C-AJTxxx Bid 1NT and go slow
S-x H-AJx D-Kxx C-JTxxxx Bid 2D and see what happens
S-xx H-Axx D-Kxxx C-QT9x Bid DBL (good Club raise)
S-xx H-xxx D-Qxxx C-JTxx Bid 2C (pass ok too)
S-x H-xxx D-xxx C-AJTxxx Bid 3C
S-x H-xxx D-xxx C-xxxxxx Bid 2NT

This allows partner to know what to do, say if he opened 1C with a hand somehting like

S-AKxx
H-ATxx
D-AQ
C-xxx

Opposite a jump to 2NT, he will clearly correct to 3C. Opposite most of the other raises he will bid 3NT. Misho point about wrong handing a 3NT is well taken, so the 1NT game forcing club raise probably should promise a diamond stopper. But remember, it is game forcing and denies a four card major, so odds are long that it has a diamond stopper (or legnth) anway. If you are worried about wrong-suiting hte hand (say short diamond-no stopper), you can start with a double (constructive raise or better) and then force after that with new suit/Diamond cue-bid.

Ben

[mjmassi]

A problem with transfer advances is the loss of space over the "good raise". This space may be needed to find a secondary fit, especially if partner's overcall is in a minor. For example, after (1D) 2C (p), if 2D and 2H are transfers and 2S shows the good club raise, you can no longer find a 4-4 major suit fit at the 2 level.

I like the idea of using 1m (dbl) 1NT as a constructive raise of the minor, although I see two drawbacks. First, the natural 1NT here on 8 points could help partner compete to 3 of the minor with a six card suit, whereas passing could lead to getting frozen out of the auction. Backing in with a cooperative double if the auction is already at 2 of a major seems to be too much on only 8 points. But the auction won't get to the 2 level that often (partner has 12, doubler 12, you 8, LHO 8 or less), so we can probably live with this. More importantly, isn't there a risk of wrong siding the notrump if partner has a good hand?

Mike M.

[inquiry]

Quote

I like the idea of using 1m (dbl) 1NT as a constructive raise of the minor, although I see two drawbacks. First, the natural 1NT here on 8 points could help partner compete to 3 of the minor with a six card suit, whereas passing could lead to getting frozen out of the auction. Backing in with a cooperative double if the auction is already at 2 of a major seems to be too much on only 8 points. But the auction won't get to the 2 level that often (partner has 12, doubler 12, you 8, LHO 8 or less), so we can probably live with this. More importantly, isn't there a risk of wrong siding the notrump if partner has a good hand?

Wrong-siding the Notrump on 1c-X-1NT with a constructive raise is the largest problem. In fact, Robson/Segal leave this as an optional treatment since so many like the natural 1NT. Another suggestion that has been made to give up on the penatly redbl and use XX as transfer to next higher suit, etc, with 1S being constructive transfer to 2C (say 1C was opened) and 2C as preemtpive raise. Here 1NT would be natural.

The tradeoff using the redouble like this of course, is that you no longer have the natural redbouble, and with today's light takeout doubles, this is not something I would like to lose. It is not so important after (1any)-Overcall-(neg dbl)- RDBL, because after partners overcall and RHO's neg double, there really isn't any good likelyhood I will have enough HCP to be interested in a low level penatly double of them. So over a negative double by the opponents, I do play redouble as a transfer advance.

So you are looking at the merits of distinquishing between good raises to 2C (with 1NT) and weak raises to 2C (with direct 2C). As you note, if you bid a natural 1NT it might allow your partner to compete to 3 of the minor with a six card suit. On the other hand if you bid a natural but WEAK 2C that you could otherwise not bid, you allow him to compete to 3 on a five card suit, and even some four card suits. If the bidding were to die in 2H and your partner holds six clubs, he is likely to guess right occassionaly and compete again, but with 5 and certainly 4 clubs, he will is unlikely to take another call.

Likewise if your 2C raise can be weak upto constructive over the takeout double, you partner may pass 2C on hands were you should be bidding more and bidding more on hand where you should be staying low. Overreaching use to ba common problem for me, but with these differentiated raises it is not as common.

As to the issue of wrong-siding the contract. Well, this is absolutely true and happens occassionally. There is no doubt that if partner opened a hand too good for 1NT with 1C and you don't have a diamond stopper and you bid a "constructive" or better 1NT without a diamond stopper you have just wrongsided a potential 3NT contract. On the other hand, if you have Axx in diamonds and they they DBL and you bid 1NT, you have wrongsided it if partner has Qx of diamonds.

And there is an advantage of passing balanced hands of 8 to 11 points without a good fit for partner that you may not have thought about. The advantage is that you get to use optional doubles with clear an unambigioius meaning. 1) No higher four card suit to what partner opened, 2) no good fit for partner, 3) less value than initial redbl. My experience is that if you pass with balanced yuck over 1m-x, the opponents invariably get to 2M which you can take a swing at. The reason is if you pass and LHO bids 1M, RHO will almost always assume he is on the top of the 1M bid when it goes 1m-x-P-1M; P and will bid again. IF he doesn't bid again? Ok, you can bid your 1NT now, no harm. I have even seen quite a few silly 1m-X-p-1M; p-3M. where a double leads to a healthy reward. At the other table? The auction was 1m-X-1NT-all pass. This works better on 1m-X than 1M-X since the suit legnth inference is clearer.

There is trade-offs to all styles. At least when I bid 1NT over 1c-X I have a constructive club raise of better without a four card major. We have wrong-sided the contract but they have not necessarily identified the correct suit to lead. On the other hand, sometimes on 1m-x-1NT I stumble into a lucky right sided contract that is hard to get right-sided after 1m-x-2m.

[inquiry]

Quote

2CL weak raise, even 3 preemptive raise most of cases only help to opps - look last bermuda bowl fantoni-nunes by raising 1CL-dbl-3CL only push opps to game at 4HE.

Omg, you are right... all this Bergen raise stuff with 1M-3M as weak and 1H-x-3H as weak, and inverted raises with 1c-p-3C as weak must clearly be wrong because it only helps to push your opponent to their makeable 4M games. I am going to switch back immediately to 1M-3M and 1m-3m as game forcing raise...no more helping the opponents.

Likewise, I am sure we can find numerous hands where 1m-x-1NT or 1c-1D-1Nt wrong handed the contract. No one should ever bid 1Nt without 1.5 stopper in all unbid suits, and 2 would be better.

I need not preach about pressure bidding to you my friend. When the bidding goes 1m-dbl-3m and this pushes the opponents to 4HE, they are taking the last guess. Maybe 4HE makes, maybe 6HE makes, maybe 4HE is too high. This is the idea of this bidding of course, to take away constructive bidding space. This "helps" the opponents sometimes, but it in theory it should hurt them more, and if it is not, then you need to re-examine the hands you do this on. We might conclude that separating very weak preempts from normal preempts might help a thoughtful opponent more, but even though one hand is described as very weak, that just mean potentially more for his partner, so I am not so sure of this conclusion.

Ben

[flytoox]

I think when you consider about transfer advances, the more important question is the continuation after xfer. What opener shld do with or without fit? with or without extra value? Who is the info sender and receiver. How much is the min for a xfer? When not to use a xfer?

If Rdbl is still used for any penalty-oriented hand, then xfer shld show less than 10hcp.

[inquiry]

Quote

If Rdbl is still used for any penalty-oriented hand, then xfer shld show less than 10hcp.

A word of caution here, Hongjun. You should only make a penalty-oriented redouble on a hand where you have at least modest interest in making a penalty double of their run out. If your hand is offensively oriented, and not suited to leaving an invited penalty double in if partner does double, then don't make the redouble in the first place. This means that your conclusion that playing penalty-oriented redoubles, all non-redoubles hsow less than 10 hcp is incorrect.

ben

[flytoox]

Quote

Quote

If Rdbl is still used for any penalty-oriented hand, then xfer shld show less than 10hcp.

A word of caution here, Hongjun. You should only make a penalty-oriented redouble on a hand where you have at least modest interest in making a penalty double of their run out. If your hand is offensively oriented, and not suited to leaving an invited penalty double in if partner does double, then don't make the redouble in the first place. This means that your conclusion that playing penalty-oriented redoubles, all non-redoubles hsow less than 10 hcp is incorrect.

ben

Yes, then the continuation is even more important after xfer.
1) shld opener always accepte xfer? or xfer implies a fit?
2) how opener to show extra value when responder may have very wild range for his xfer?

[inquiry]

Quote

Yes, then the continuation is even more important after xfer.
1) shld opener always accepte xfer? or xfer implies a fit?
2) how opener to show extra value when responder may have very wild range for his xfer?

1) No, opener should not always accept the transfer (but he can not pass if he is long in the suit his partner bid artificially(
2) By bidding more..... Let's take quick look at the simpliest continuations...

Simple choice one.. Opener "accepts the transfer" by bidding the transfer suit. To keep this simple, let's give a hypothetical auction...

(1D)-1S-(P)-2D-(P)-? (2D=transfer advance to 2H)

Overcallers rebids....

• 2HE = I would have passed a nonforcing 2HE bid, doesn't even promise particulary good heart fit (doubeton is fine)
  
• 2SP = no tolerance for HE, wants to play in SP, not particularily encouraging
  
• 2NT = natural, extra values and usually two card fit
  
• 3C = natural and focing (espc. if you play top michaels)
  
• 3D = cue-bid, HEART FIT, Lots of EXTRA VALUES, aka "super accept"
  
• 3H = Heart fit, more than simple accept which might not be a fit at all, but not the big extra values. LAWFUL bid.

Ok, I assume you can work out what to do over 2NT, and raises or the forcing new suit. What does responder do when opener just takes a simple preference showing a weak hand?

(1D)-1S-(P)-2D-(P)-2H-(P)?

• Pass - ok, we can all work this out, to play
  
• 2S - depends on partnership agreement. I think most would play this as a sound raise to 2S with a heart suit. I play this as a raise and a warning... don't lead our suit, lead hearts instead.
  
• 3C - natural and forcing (NMF for lack of better term)
  
• 2NT - natural, invite
  
• 3NT - natural pass/correct with hearts
  
• 3D - *cue bid - looking for Diamond stopper for NT/ else 4HE
  
• 3H - invite
  
• 3S - odd the way I play, standard is 3 card support, invite, +5+ hearts
  
• 4CL/4DI - splinter, showing 3S, 6H, shortness in bid suit
  
• 4S - you got me... hearts and spades with initial slam interest until all you could bid was 2HE's?

Ben

[mishovnbg]

Hi all!
1. 1NT - yes, I like it as fit. But I also cant refuse opinion of both the best bulgarian theorist (uncle Bill) and the best bulgarian player (Rumen). 1 NT nat bid comes too often to be sacrificed and you must be FIRST who bid it. By the way in the Erick Rodwell interview he said same about 1NT. So I give up to play it as fit, at least in theory, because with Ben and Boian I play it as fit .
2. Mike: "A problem with transfer advances is the loss of space over the "good raise". This space may be needed to find a secondary fit, especially if partner's overcall is in a minor."
Hi Mike! I play 1NT overcall as modified Raptor, so cant miss side fit.
3. If you play already in your system with transfers, like in NTC, nothing simple to continue same way. After bid in transfer or cue bid(=relay) responder continue with second transfers. After relay a little modification needed about NT bids promisse stop, while retransfer denied stop and dont promisse +1 card. With 6 cards and inv you can jump directly.
Overcaller rebids after transfer follow NTC principles:
Bid in transfer: min
Cue bid: relay, max hand
Other: nat, average hand, good suit(s)
Misho

[Shibboleth]

There s a Transfer System by Salvador Assael
http://www.e-admit.com/salvo/default.asp?p...page=66&dil=eng