[inquiry]

I play precision form time to time. We open 1D on as few as two diamonds. I alert this each time as "Maybe short." Of course, sometime I hold 5, 6 or even more diamonds, but I alert it just the same.  

I alerted 1D recently and an opponent shouted long and loud when I showed up with five Diamonds that I was a liar. So much that I asked deanrover to come and explain to this "expert" (his marking on his card) that the alert was proper. Whiile this discussion was going on, my partner alerted a 2H bid (4th suit forcing) as artificial. It turns out he had 4Hearts and a game forcing hand, but when he showed up with 4Hs, the expert started all over again about both of us being liars.

If you are new to ALERTS, the person who alerts the bid is telling his opponents what his partnerships agreement is. I alerted 1D because my partner is aware that I MIGHT have as few as 2 diamonds. My partner ALERTED 2H because it I would take it as artificial (not promising or denying Hearts) and asking for further clarification. Alerts are not meant to trick you but rather to inform you about your opponents non-standard agreements. If you have any questions about your opponents alert, use the private chat buttons to ask the person who made the alert for more information.

[Mike]

I agree with the guy who was upset with the unnecessary and misleading behaviour of the alert enthusiasts. This is a fast on-line game, not ego boosting comportment to show how sophisticated we are. The information exchange shall be short, fast and relevant. Alerting short hand bid with long cards is a clear cut falsification for many, even if it is hiding behind certain club level rules. To avoid misunderstanding, please, notify people on your namecard that you are an alert enthusiast.

[keylime]

To take the approach that "most times, we really have at least 3 diamonds" and thusly not alert it defeats the entire purpose of the alert system. It was designed to warn opponents of bid/responses/treatments that are "non-standard" and "non-natural" in connotation. Frankly it sounds like the expert's conduct and not the alert itself is the culprit - a true expert does not conduct themselves in such a derogatory and demeaning manner. Bridge has decorum - that expert is debasing and diminishing the game by their conduct, and should be held accountable for such.

In the ACBL these days, any NF opening of a minor requires an ANNOUNCEMENT - finally some sense after years of having to alert a short club/diamond. This is an improvement (so is announcing all ranges of NT).

No alert system is truly perfect - we don't live in a perfect world. However, by alerting you're protecting your rights within the Laws, and your opponents as well.

[slamsRus]

Perhaps the point has to be made that alerts are given primarily to protect the opponents, not mislead them.  Duplicate bridge strives to be a game of complete information, it's not poker.  As Dwayne has pointed out, if a partnership agrees they "can" open 1d with as few as 2, the opponents are entitled to know, because their partner already knows that.

This is not "alert enthusiasm", this is ethical and required.  Or from the other perspective, if your opponent opens 2d showing 4-5 in the majors as doesn't alert it, wouldn't you feel hard done by?

Ragnar

[inquiry]

Mike stated that "alerting short hand bids with long cards" is a clear cut falsification. It maybe that he is implying not to alert all 1D opening bids as "maybe short" but rather to wait until you really open 1D with a short suit and alert saying something like "I HAVE ONLY 2 DIAMONDS".  If so, this is unfair to players at other tables where such precise information is not available, and since your partner doesn't know if you have 2 or 10 Diamonds, you are sharing inappropriate information with your opponents.  If you occasionally open weak 2H with a five card suit, should you then alert your opponents on hands where you hold five cards but not six? If you make a fourth suit forcing bid when actually holding length in the 4 th suit, should you not alert...saving the only alert of the 4th suit bid to only when you hold 3 or fewer cards? That implied solution is just silly and wrong.

Mike did make a good point, however. He said "Exchange must be short, fast, & relevant...". On this I agree fully. But how much shorter and more relevant can a two word description "MAYBE SHORT" be? Well it is true, that lots of people press the ALERT button and never describe in anyway what it is they are alerting, so that their description is shorter (non existent), but is it relevant? And while the undescribed alert is ok, it forces the opponents to request more information if they do not understand the meaning of the alert, so is it "faster"?  Fortunately with BBO, requesting additional information is fast, simple and can be done confidentially.  

On describing alerts and agreements Horthgar in another forum here recommends a detailed convention card with recommended defenses and extensive description using his MOSCITO as an example. This is so much overkill, and clearly not something that the casual opponent should ever be referred too. However, if I planned to play against Horthgar regularly (or with him), having access to this information for review when not actually playing would be extremely helpful.

As for the extremely rude implication Mike made.....

"Alerting short hand bid with long cards is a clear cut falsification for many, even if it is hiding behind certain club level rules." .....

This is wrong headed on many front. First, "maybe short" did not say it had to be short. It described precisely my partnership agreement. So there was no "falsification" at all. Second, this is not "hiding behind certain club level rules." BBO rules on alerting are basically non-existent other than the ethical statement that "if you have any question if a bid should be alerted or not, you should alert." On alerting 1D bids, there is no question, not in the ACBL at least. If you will open 1D with less than 3, they require an alert: so I alert.

My problem is with the non-alerters (and of course people who call me a cheat, liar of "falsifier" when I alert). I play against a lot players using polish 1C, and 90% of the time they do not alert their 1C bid. They sometimes have a typical weak hand with 3 or 4 or 5 clubs. Sometimes they have a monster hand with a singleton of void in clubs and 8 spades. I greatly prefer if they remind me with an alert when they bid 1C that their bid MAYBE short in Clubs and that it is FORCING. Likewise if someone opens 1NT with anything other than a 14-16, 15-17 or 16-18 HCP range, I sure would like to be alerted (if they have not already told me).

PS: to Mike specifically. Alerts are not "not ego boosting" attempts... far from it. They are meant as to be an ethical addition to the game to make sure that you and your partner do not share information about your hand that is concealed from your opponents. So Mike, I will not be adding "alert enthusiast" to my profile. First off, I also play SAYC and almost never alert playing that, and second it is just silly... everyone should alert  bids that are "not standard" (whatever that is). But I play as inquiry in the BBO, so if we are ever at the same table (or anytime you play on line or elsewhere for that matter), if you don't like alerts simply ask "not to be alerted". I am sure everyone at the table will be willing to comply with your personal preference.

[geofspa]

May I add my twopenny worth to this discussion.
The alerting of bids is not to show what cards you are holding in your hand, but to let the opponents know you have a partnership agreement about that particular bid.  I saw a great example the other day when someone bid 2!s as a "psych" bid to prevent the opponents finding their fit.  this is not cheating and when asked about the bid the responce was "natural and forcing" which is how his partner would understand the bid.  Bridge is game of conventions, and if you and your partner have some particular bids that may show something out of the ordinary I would expect to be told of that fact, and the way to do that is the alert system.

As for supposed "experts" we all know what an ex is and a spurt is just a drip under pressure.  :-/

If faced with this situation at the table in BBO I will play the hand out, make my excuses and leave.

[nadroj]

what's the problem? inquiry did exactly the right thing... as far as his partner knew he had 2 or more diamonds, period... and as someone else pointed out, very few of us have failed to respond 1S to our pard's 1H opening holding a stiff spade... sometimes ... but the point is, our pard has every right to expect a "natural and forcing" bid, and we shouldn't moan loudly (or publicly) when she jumps to 4S

[keylime]

To generate another subthread relating to alerts, I notice that many pairs get fourth suit forcing (FSF) all wrong - they instead of rebidding NT they will bid the suit, then you're surprised when they show up with length in that suit...what other treatments are misalerted or misinterpreted in use/play/explaination?

[JRG]

One of the other posters alluded to this, but let me make it explicit:

It is ILLEGAL to sometimes alert a bid and not othertimes. It is referred to as "unauthorized information".

The example given (1 diamond opening) has a counterpart with the stop card (using it only for jumps that are weak; not using it when the jump is strong).

[easy]

Quote

To generate another subthread relating to alerts, I notice that many pairs get fourth suit forcing (FSF) all wrong - they instead of rebidding NT they will bid the suit, then you're surprised when they show up with length in that suit...what other treatments are misalerted or misinterpreted in use/play/explaination?

I'm not sure i understand what u mean by the above. Perhaps if you provided an example we could agree / disagree. (although in general i feel most play conventions they dont completely understand)

Is this what u r referring to?

i hold   AKxx   x    KJxxx    AJx

And the auction proceeds (no bids by opponents)
1c    1d
1H    1S

are u suggesting that i bid some number of nt rather than fsf?

In addition what is FSF for me may not be for someone else. Some play the above auction is natural and others play it is FSF. Which is better? I dont know. My contention is that if you are comfortable with a convention then that is the one you should play.

[keylime]

FSF I refer to after a G/F is established and three different suits have been bid and unsupported. To me, makes things easier on pard - if you got the fourth suit covered and you can't support a game bid in his/her two suits, bid NT to tell the good news.

I also agree that they are many treatments that are misconstrued in overtone.

[inquiry]

Hey Easy,

You said. i hold   AKxx   x    KJxxx    AJx

And the auction proceeds (no bids by opponents)
1c    1d
1H    1S

are u suggesting that i bid some number of nt rather than fsf?

In addition what is FSF for me may not be for someone else. Some play the above auction is natural and others play it is


On this particular auction, I play 1S as natural. If I wanted to make a fourth suit forcing bid on this specific auction, I would jump to 2S.

As for Dwayne's idea that the person making the fourth suit forcing bid shouldn't never hold the suit.  I disagree with this statement too. When actually holding the suit, 4th suit forcing could still be used with game forcing hands with some uncertaintly about the final strain or level. The bid is forcing, and artificial seeking additional information from opener, not providing specific detail about your hand. However, I do agree with Dwayne that lots of times people who should bid some number of notrump instead incorrectly bid 4th suit forcing.

[hrothgar]

A more illustrative example might be the following

You hold the following hand

7
K42
KQT53
AT73

and chose to open 1D

The auction proceeds

1D - 1S
2C - 2H

Partner's 2H bid is 4th suit forcing.
2H does not necessarily promise a heart suit, rather, it is a forcing bid that asks whether you hold 3 card spade support.

In some styles, 2H establishes a game forcing.
In others, it is forcing for 1 round.

As responder to FSF, your obligations are as follows

1. Holding 3 spades, rebid 2S
2. Holding a Heart stopper, rebid 2NT
3. With a 0445 holding but no desire to declare NT, pattern out your hand by bidding 3H
4. Otherwise, find a rebid in one of your minors.

[pkl]

Your description of 1D as "maybe short" is certainly inadequate.  I would simply describe 1D as "precision" as this is adequate and short and often understood by your opps. If they do not understand you simply must do some more explanation (via the chat). In that case you should say as much as:

All 11-15HCP hands which cannot be opened with 1H, 1S or 2C (all five cards, where 2C shows a GOOD 5-card suit). Thus 1D often contains longer clubs.

Kind regards
Peter

[inquiry]

Quote

Your description of 1D as "maybe short" is certainly inadequate.  I would simply describe 1D as "precision" as this is adequate and short and often understood by your opps. If they do not understand you simply must do some more explanation (via the chat). In that case you should say as much as:

All 11-15HCP hands which cannot be opened with 1H, 1S or 2C (all five cards, where 2C shows a GOOD 5-card suit). Thus 1D often contains longer clubs.

Kind regards
Peter

Thanks for the input Peter. Howver, I believe what needs to be alerted is the fact that I will open 1D with a two card suit, not that my hand per se, is limited to 15hcp. However, I do agree that they are required to know this information. And in fact, we pre-alerted that all hands of 16 hcp or more are opened 1C. Do you alert every 1H or 1S bid as Precision? I know of NO ONE who does that. But it is very common to see 2C opening alerted as precision. The reason being, that is so much shorter than saying "11-15hcp, 6 card suit, unless holding a four card major, in which case it will could be a five card suit."

Anyway, my understanding of the current alert rules for precision maybe limited, as I almost never play it anymore. But the alert I remember was for the maybe short from when I did, not that it was limited to 15, so that is what I alerted. And as BBO guidelines state.... "if you have any question if a bid should be alerted or not, you should alert." I think maybe short clearly falls into this category.

[Rado]

The general purpoce of "Alert" is to warn the opponents that the bid shows some additional information which "MIGHT" not be known to them. When playing on screens or at BBO Partner does not see the Alert so no unauthorised information may be passed from Alert or failure of it. Proper Alerting is the Spirit of the game as fair play. There are many situations where even  "pass"  must be alerted because it means something:-))))) lead that or do not lead that or forcing pass, or better hand pass and many other agreements.
Regarding "nebulous" 1D opening in precision it's enough to explain as 2+cards or 1+cards