[sceptic]

1/. is Puppet stayman anygood?
(I realise all conventions probably are if used with the type of hand they are designed for

2/.can you adds some pros and cons please

3/. if the problem is playing (or missing a 5/3 fit) how big is this issue

4/. is it not easier to drop openng NT with a 5 card major, ifyou feel strongly enough that missing 5/3 fits is not good

TY all for any other comments

[helene_t]

Disadvantage:
1NT-2♣
2♦-2M* (other major)

Opps can double 2M for the lead.

[whereagles]

> 1/. is Puppet stayman anygood?

If you play that 1NT can have a 5 card major, then it sure is better than regular Stayman. Otherwise it's useless


> 2/.can you adds some pros and cons please

Pros: allows you to dump the 5M332 shape with 15-17, which is typically hard to bid, into the 1NT opening.

Cons: what is opener going to do with no 5 or 4 card major and a max? He'll have to bid 1NT-2♣-3NT and hope this doesn't inconvenience a strong pard too much.


> 3/. if the problem is playing (or missing a 5/3 fit) how big is this issue

It's not an issue. The cases where you end up in the wrong contract and opps capitalize on that are too rare to matter in the long run.


> 4/. is it not easier to drop openng NT with a 5 card major, ifyou feel strongly enough
> that missing 5/3 fits is not good

I don't understand this question, but I can tell you I've been opening 1NT on some pretty off-shape hands and no harm has come to me so far

[luke warm]

sceptic, on Apr 18 2006, 01:42 AM, said:

1/. is Puppet stayman anygood?
(I realise all conventions probably are if used with the type of hand they are designed for

i prefer to use puppet for the reason whereagles stated... i pretty much always (systemically) open 5M332 hands with 1nt, if they fall within the proper range

Quote

2/.can you adds some pros and cons please

follow ups are simple, caters to 5M in opener's hand
as helene said, 1nt : 2c : 2d : 2h (denying hearts) can be x'd, although i'm not sure how many would play such a double as lead directing vs. something else

Quote

3/. if the problem is playing (or missing a 5/3 fit) how big is this issue

a matter of philosophy... i much prefer opening a balanced hand with a bid that shows this, it much simplifies other auctions

Quote

4/. is it not easier to drop openng NT with a 5 card major, ifyou feel strongly enough that missing 5/3 fits is not good

say you're 2533 with 15-17 and open 1h.. partner bids 1s, what do you bid? or even if you're 5332 and open 1s, partner bids 2c... your bid

it's just a matter of being able to give a general description of the hand in one bid, and how valuable one finds that ability to be

[P_Marlowe]

sceptic, on Apr 18 2006, 01:42 AM, said:

<skipped, since I dont play puppet stayman>

4/. is it not easier to drop openng NT with a 5 card major, ifyou feel strongly enough that missing 5/3 fits is not good

<skipped>

If you feel strongly about it, you have answered
the question.
Edgar Kaplan prefered playing weak NT, but he
played strong NT with his regular partner
Norman Kay, since Kay feeled a bid uneasy playing
weak NT.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[paulg]

I think Wayne's question also applies to a 2NT opener!

Firstly, with respect to 1NT openers, I changed to using 3♣ as Puppet Stayman about a year ago and found it comes up more than our previous meaning of the bid. However this illustrates the real question - you will give something up to use Puppet over 1NT and you need to judge its value on that basis. Also consider how well it fits into your overall response structure.

As Helene implies, the sequences can become more contorted over 2♣ Puppet Stayman and you will lose the ability to use Stayman as an escape mechanism.

With a 15-17 1NT there is always a debate about whether you can hold a 5-card major. At least, with this strength, there are viable sequences whichever opening you choose.

With 2NT there is no real alternative to opening 2NT with a balanced 20-21 even when you have a 5-card major, so there is more value to Puppet Stayman here. There is more than one variant so choose one that you feel is easiest to remember.

p

[whereagles]

cardsharp, on Apr 18 2006, 02:23 PM, said:

there is no real alternative to opening 2NT with a balanced 20-21 even when you have a 5-card major

That's not true. You can bid a 20-22 balanced hand with 5M332 shape like this:

1M 1♠/1NT
3NT

or

1M 2x
2NT, followed by a quantitative 5NT

The main reason for opening 2NT despite a 5-card major is the usual problem passing with a bad 4-5 hcp and missing out on a cold game. It isn't because you don't have alternatives.

[winkle]

Advantages:

1. Ability to find 5-3 fits in opener's major.

2. Better concealment of opener's shape. In normal stayman, opener tells responder what 4-card major he has. In puppet stayman, responder tells opener. Generally it's better to conceal opener's hand because responder's hand will be known after trick one anyways.

Disadvantages:

1. Puppet stayman consumes the sequences 1N-2C-2D-2H, 1N-2C-2D-2S, so you can no longer use them for whatever you used them for. For many people the main loss is garbage stayman.

2. In my version, we can miss a 5-3 major suit fit if opener has a minimum with 3-2 in the majors, and responder has an invitational hand with 5-4 in the majors. There may be other puppet versions that fix this, at the cost of something else. In practice, this doesn't matter.

I like Puppet stayman and play it, but I don't think it's that important. I definitely feel the loss of garbage stayman, especially at matchpoints. I think there are more useful conventions you can spend your time with.

[luis]

I assume you are talking about puppet over 1NT because puppet over 2NT is almost standard and the advantages over regular Stayman when you open 2NT are really important.

There are 3 schools about opening 1NT with a 5 card major
1) Never
2) Only with a bad suit
3) Ever

In 1 you don't need PS, in 2 you can also live without it since treating a bad 5 card suit as 4 cards is usually a good compromise. In #3 however you probably want to find out if pd has a 5 card major, I personally hate PS over 1NT so I use Keri which is a lot better.

Luis

[jdonn]

luis, on Apr 18 2006, 10:00 AM, said:

I assume you are talking about puppet over 1NT because puppet over 2NT is almost standard and the advantages over regular Stayman when you open 2NT are really important.

There are 3 schools about opening 1NT with a 5 card major
1) Never
2) Only with a bad suit
3) Ever

In 1 you don't need PS, in 2 you can also live without it since treating a bad 5 card suit as 4 cards is usually a good compromise. In #3 however you probably want to find out if pd has a 5 card major, I personally hate PS over 1NT so I use Keri which is a lot better.

Luis

Puppet stayman is almost standard now?? That is news to me. I would bet if I go to an NABC and quiz every pair in some national event, less than 30% of the pairs are using it over 2NT, and less than 10% over 1NT.

There are also a lot more than three schools of thought as to when to open 1NT with a five card major. There are many other factors in play.
- Willingness to upgrade 17 or downgrade 15 if you have a major
- Strength of your doubleton
- Tenaces
- Having 2 or 3 cards in the other major (having 2 is undesirable since if partner transfers to it you may play a 5-2 major fit instead of your 5-3 major fit)
- Having hearts as opposed to having spades (Opening 1H leads to more rebid problems than opening 1S does)

Some disadvantages of puppet stayman
- You can no longer use garbage stayman (doesn't really matter over 2NT, matters a fair bit over 1NT)
- You can't use smolen over 2NT any more, which is a big deal
- You give them more artificial bids to double
- It gives more information about opener's hand to the opponents

I have also seen Keri work very badly a few times (though I have hardly ever played it), in particular the bid that shows an invitation with 4 or 5 of a major. It is important for opener's evaluation whether responder has 4 or 5, and he may want to play a 5-3 fit but not a 4-3 fit.

[luis]

jdonn, on Apr 18 2006, 03:55 PM, said:

There are also a lot more than three schools of thought as to when to open 1NT with a five card major. There are many other factors in play.
- Willingness to upgrade 17 or downgrade 15 if you have a major
- Strength of your doubleton
- Tenaces
- Having 2 or 3 cards in the other major (having 2 is undesirable since if partner transfers to it you may play a 5-2 major fit instead of your 5-3 major fit)
- Having hearts as opposed to having spades (Opening 1H leads to more rebid problems than opening 1S does)

Some disadvantages of puppet stayman
- You can no longer use garbage stayman (doesn't really matter over 2NT, matters a fair bit over 1NT)
- You can't use smolen over 2NT any more, which is a big deal
- You give them more artificial bids to double
- It gives more information about opener's hand to the opponents

I have also seen Keri work very badly a few times (though I have hardly ever played it), in particular the bid that shows an invitation with 4 or 5 of a major. It is important for opener's evaluation whether responder has 4 or 5, and he may want to play a 5-3 fit but not a 4-3 fit.

Quote

Puppet stayman is almost standard now?? That is news to me. I would bet if I go to an NABC and quiz every pair in some national event, less than 30% of the pairs are using it over 2NT, and less than 10% over 1NT.

Will you be quizzing the good pairs or the "husband & wife on a bridge trip" ? Among the good pairs I would say 1% play regular Stayman over 2NT. Some might play Romex or variations instead of Puppet but the idea is the same.

Quote

There are also a lot more than three schools of thought as to when to open 1NT with a five card major. There are many other factors in play.
- Willingness to upgrade 17 or downgrade 15 if you have a major
- Strength of your doubleton
- Tenaces
- Having 2 or 3 cards in the other major (having 2 is undesirable since if partner transfers to it you may play a 5-2 major fit instead of your 5-3 major fit)
- Having hearts as opposed to having spades (Opening 1H leads to more rebid problems than opening 1S does)

Very nice but completely unrelated to the choice of playing puppet or not.

Quote

- You can't use smolen over 2NT any more, which is a big deal
- You give them more artificial bids to double
- It gives more information about opener's hand to the opponents

What? Smolen over 2NT? Who uses Smolen over 2NT? Maybe just you.
More artificials bid to double? For example?
More information to the opponents? When you have half the deck you want to play a game you can win not blast to something, the 2NT opening is already enough information a clarification can only help your side.

I found most of your comments really terrible.

Luis

[jdonn]

luis, on Apr 18 2006, 11:11 AM, said:

Quote

Puppet stayman is almost standard now?? That is news to me. I would bet if I go to an NABC and quiz every pair in some national event, less than 30% of the pairs are using it over 2NT, and less than 10% over 1NT.

Will you be quizzing the good pairs or the "husband & wife on a bridge trip" ? Among the good pairs I would say 1% play regular Stayman over 2NT. Some might play Romex or variations instead of Puppet but the idea is the same.

Now you are just saying things you can't possibly back up. You are wrong. Vastly more than 1% of expert players use regular stayman over 2NT, not puppet stayman (in the United States anyway). If more than 99% played puppet stayman as you imply, then why would it still be alertable?

luis, on Apr 18 2006, 11:11 AM, said:

Quote

There are also a lot more than three schools of thought as to when to open 1NT with a five card major. There are many other factors in play.
- Willingness to upgrade 17 or downgrade 15 if you have a major
- Strength of your doubleton
- Tenaces
- Having 2 or 3 cards in the other major (having 2 is undesirable since if partner transfers to it you may play a 5-2 major fit instead of your 5-3 major fit)
- Having hearts as opposed to having spades (Opening 1H leads to more rebid problems than opening 1S does)

Very nice but completely unrelated to the choice of playing puppet or not.

You brought up that issue, not me! And it's completely related to the decision of whether to play puppet stayman. The more you open 1NT with a five card major, the more likely you want to play puppet stayman. Give me a break, you are just trying to disagree with me because you don't like me.

luis, on Apr 18 2006, 11:11 AM, said:

Quote

- You can't use smolen over 2NT any more, which is a big deal
- You give them more artificial bids to double
- It gives more information about opener's hand to the opponents

What? Smolen over 2NT? Who uses Smolen over 2NT? Maybe just you.

Maybe just almost everyone who uses regular stayman, which is most players. And you are completely missing the point in your efforts to try embarassing me, which is you can show 5-4 in the majors when you use regular stayman (whether you play smolen or not), but it is much more difficult when using puppet stayman.

luis, on Apr 18 2006, 11:11 AM, said:

More artificials bid to double? For example?

Puppet stayman when responder has 4 spades and opener has 4 hearts:
2NT p 3C p 3D p 3H DBL 3N
Regular stayman:
2NT p 3C p 3H p 3N

And how about the fact that you will respond with stayman more often, since you will bid 3C on hands without any four card majors? So they can double the 3C bid more often as well.

luis, on Apr 18 2006, 11:11 AM, said:

More information to the opponents? When you have half the deck you want to play a game you can win not blast to something, the 2NT opening is already enough information a clarification can only help your side.

Puppet stayman when responder is looking for a 5-3 fit
2NT p 3C p 3NT
they know opener has fewer than four of each major
Regular stayman
2NT p 3NT
they know nothing about opener's shape at all

Puppet stayman
2NT p 3C p 3H p 3NT
they know opener has 5 hearts
Regular stayman
2NT p 3C p 3H p 3NT
they know opener has 4 or 5 hearts

It is much much (much!) easier to defend when you know more about declarer's shape. That is a valid point and important factor when deciding whether to play puppet stayman, whether you personally agree with it or not.

luis, on Apr 18 2006, 11:11 AM, said:

I found most of your comments really terrible.

Luis

Feel however you want. But saying so is really rude. You are just trying to start an argument, and you succeeded. Next time you want to insult me, do it privately.

[keylime]

I use Rubber Ducky Stayman, which I feel is superior to Puppet Stayman because it allows responder a lot more leeway to do things in the auction. It's a derived form of Muppet Stayman.

[luis]

Quote

Now you are just saying things you can't possibly back up. You are wrong. Vastly more than 1% of expert players use regular stayman over 2NT, not puppet stayman (in the United States anyway). If more than 99% played puppet stayman as you imply, then why would it still be alertable?

Maybe this depends on what you consider expert players, I know exactly 0 good pairs that play regular stayman over 2NT. You might name a few but 90% of the good pairs in international competition play Pupper, Romex or something.
Why it should be alertable? Because it is a partnership agreement!!! Everybody plays weak 2s and they are still alertable aren't they?

Quote

You brought up that issue, not me! And it's completely related to the decision of whether to play puppet stayman. The more you open 1NT with a five card major, the more likely you want to play puppet stayman. Give me a break, you are just trying to disagree with me because you don't like me.

How can I NOT like you if I don't know you? Do you have a photo somewhere?

Quote

Feel however you want. But saying so is really rude. You are just trying to start an argument, and you succeeded. Next time you want to insult me, do it privately.

I never meant to insult you I just found most of your arguments in this thread horrible and I'm entitled to have an opinion, unless you prove it different you are still my friend because you post here as me, if you want an enemy I'm not the indicated person since I'm quite friendly. You are allowed to think my arguments are stupid and I'm allowed to think your ideas are horrible and we can still be friends or not? I don't pretend my friends to think like me, that would be boring!

Going back to your arguments you are comparing pears and apples :-)

Luis

[cherdano]

Luis, I once thought the same ("all good pairs use it"), but puppet stayman (over 2NT) isn't even BWS, which should be a strong indication that it's not the majority choice among North American experts.

Arend

[luis]

cherdano, on Apr 18 2006, 06:05 PM, said:

Luis, I once thought the same ("all good pairs use it"), but puppet stayman (over 2NT) isn't even BWS, which should be a strong indication that it's not the majority choice among North American experts.

Arend

Don't confuse experts with people that play and do well at the local club :-)

[cherdano]

luis, on Apr 18 2006, 08:37 PM, said:

cherdano, on Apr 18 2006, 06:05 PM, said:

Luis, I once thought the same ("all good pairs use it"), but puppet stayman (over 2NT) isn't even BWS, which should be a strong indication that it's not the majority choice among North American experts.

Arend

Don't confuse experts with people that play and do well at the local club :-)

I think you misunderstand how the BWS polls work.

In fact, I just checked, only 13% of the expert panel (this is by invitation I suppose) voted for puppet stayman, and 25% of the "ordinary" Bridge World readers.

Edit: Josh, I am sure Luis wasn't intending any offense. Luis won't mind either if you call his opinion nuts. In fact, let me try:

Luis, your opinion on puppet stayman is completely nuts!

Arend

[jdonn]

luis, on Apr 18 2006, 01:37 PM, said:

cherdano, on Apr 18 2006, 06:05 PM, said:

Luis, I once thought the same ("all good pairs use it"), but puppet stayman (over 2NT) isn't even BWS, which should be a strong indication that it's not the majority choice among North American experts.

Arend

Don't confuse experts with people that play and do well at the local club :-)

Are we talking about "people that do well at the local club", or "good pairs in international competition", of which either "90%" use puppet stayman, or 100% ("I know exactly 0 good pairs that play regular stayman over 2NT") or 99% ("among the good pairs I would say 1% play regular stayman over 2NT")? Are experts not "good pairs"? Or are you saying the opinions of experts are somehow LESS relevent than the opinions of good club players?

It wouldn't kill you to just admit you were wrong about something, rather than frantically making up statistics at every corner and contradicting yourself.

Thanks for the statistics Arend. It's nice to see a poster make claims he can actually back up instead of fabricating them.

[jdonn]

Jlall, on Apr 18 2006, 01:46 PM, said:

BTW, jdonn himself is a "real expert." He has represented and currently represents his country internationally and has some very good successes in national events. He is a regular partner of Marshall Miles. He is likely twice the player that you are, so perhaps you should also take that into consideration when you ignorantly respond to his posts in a nasty way.

Don't forget "has lost enough money to buy a used car in the best rubber bridge games in Los Angeles over the last year"

JLall is back! Can I get a what what?