[billyjef]

This is an old debate but may be new to many reading this forum and rather than rehashing it in the sayc 2/1 forum I am going to ask for y'alls comments here. Playing 2/1 and your pd opens 1 heart; holding

AKQ9 x Q8xxxx Kx

What do you bid; 1 spade or a game forcing 2/1 bid of 2 diamonds? I know I would like to know your reasoning behind your preference also. Thank you in advanced,

Jef

[luis]

2d automatic.
Bidding a 4 card suit before a 6 card suit is beyond my imagination.
1s is a good bid when you want to practice the 4-2 mini-moysian.

[billyjef]

So you preference the 2/1 because diamonds is a six card suit? If I move a little diamonds to the clubs, would you still preference the 2/1 bid? tyia,
Jef

Quote

2d automatic.
Bidding a 4 card suit before a 6 card suit is beyond my imagination.
1s is a good bid when you want to practice the 4-2 mini-moysian.

[hrothgar]

Personally, I am a fan of the so-called MAFIA style
Majors Always First in Responding.

I prefer to show a 4 card major to a longer minor.
The negative inferences that my 2D response denies a 4 card major are extremely useful.

The answers that you get are going to strongly depend on where folks learned bridge. MAFIA is relatively common in Europe (especially Poland). It is much less common in North America.

[EricK]

Quote

This is an old debate but may be new to many reading this forum and rather than rehashing it in the sayc 2/1 forum I am going to ask for y'alls comments here. Playing 2/1 and your pd opens 1 heart; holding

AKQ9 x Q8xxxx Kx

What do you bid; 1 spade or a game forcing 2/1 bid of 2 diamonds? I know I would like to know your reasoning behind your preference also. Thank you in advanced,

Jef

If I had simply agreed to play 2/1GF without much further discussion, then I would bid 2D.

I would hope to have an auction like 1H 2D 2H 2S etc where I have shown GF strength 5+ diamonds, 4+spades. i.e. what I have got.

To answer your follow up question, I would do the same with only 5 diamonds.

MAFIA responses, as suggested by hrothgar, also work, but IMO they need farily complex follow-ups to avoid mishaps, so I wouldn't use them except in an established partnership following much discussion.

Eric

[luke warm]

2D, period.. the hand's worth a responsive reverse in spades (easily) if the bidding goes that way...

[inquiry]

2Diamonds. What else?

[the hog]

To all of those who unilaterally bid 2D:

There are two different styles, both of which are totally playable and both of which have advantages and disadvantages.

Style one:
Polish Club Matula version. This is an automatic 100% 1S bid. No argument. To fail to bid a Major is to deny one.

This is also part of some Walsh styles. Walsh responses can actually be played a number of ways, as described above, or bid a longer minor before a 4 card M with a very strong hand only. (Some do play the latter method, but to me it seems to defeat the purpose of the style).

Note that to bid a minor, denying a Major is also part of many modern Italian systems. Bocchi-Duboin play this for example, coupled with transfer responses. It is also played by some practitioners of Washington Standard.

The advantages of this are that there are a huge number of inferences available when a minor is bid. The style is a little more difficult to handle, but by no means impossible, and you can easily find out whether the M is 4 cards in length and the minor is longer. Furthermore you do NOT need to play a relay system to do so.

Luis wrote, "Bidding a 4 card suit before a 6 card suit is beyond my imagination."

Of course Luis and other posters HAVE bid 4 card suits before 6 card suits with limited hands. eg What else would you bid over 1H holding AQxx x xxxxxx Qx ? To make the same bid with GF values is just to divest oneself of a particular mindset.

Contrary to Luis' comments, there is no reason whatsoever why you should end up in a 4-2 fit. Generally responder goes via a 2NT pivot. I guess, Luis, that you have not read Matula's book or played Polish Club? Its worth a look for curiosity value, even if you don't like the style; after all lots of the top Polish players eg Balicki etc play this way. Others such as Pszkola - Kwieken, who play Strefa, prefer style 2 below.

Style two:
The second style is that espoused by all the posters apart from Hrothgar, and mentioned by EricK. I guess this comes as no surprise, as I know Richard has played Polish Club, and I guess that EricK is European and therefore has a wider exposure to different bidding styles.

This style is also playable, of course, and is certainly easier in a non established partnership. Whether it is better is arguable.

You lose the inferences I described above. There is another argument as well. With limited hands if a 4-4 M suit fit exists, get to game asap without disclosing too much distributional information. This way you are more likely to get a favourable lead.

So - you pays your money, you makes your choice. As one who has played both styles, VERY recently, - Polish Club and Strefa - I would argue that there is little difference.

Now the posted question was "playing 2/1". I guess, (certainly in a casual partnership), that you play style 2. Nothing to say you can't play Walsh or Mafia if you want to though.

What do I prefer? Well, Mafia actually. It's certainly more fun and really does fit in FAR better if you are using that most elegant of responding styles - Transfer Walsh. So if you were to ask me, I would say "1S, what else". (1H if playing transfers.)

With all due respects, however, this discussion is far more suited to the Advanced thread rather than this one. I would never teach beginner/intermediate players a Mafia style.

Cheers,

Ron

[luke warm]

ron, you're right in most of what you say.. given <this> hand, i'd bid 2D every time... however, change the hands or the bidding... i'd show the spades first without a gameforce hand.. i'd show spades first after partner opened 1C (yes, even with 6 diamonds) if my hand was worth one bid only

i'm an advocate of the walsh style of bidding, i believe it pays off in the long run, but i believe even hardy would bid 2D here.. i certainly <can> imagine bidding a 4 card major before a 6 card minor.. i've done it often enough

with this hand, even if the diamonds were only 5 cards, i'd still bid them first.. what's the problem?

[billyjef]

So the conclusion we can conclude, from all of you who believe there is no option here, is that playing 2/1, with game forcing values, 4 spades and a biddable minor, over pd's 1 heart opening, we always preference the 2/1 bid before bidding our 4 card spade suit? That is at least what I am getting. The problem was intended to be less about the specific hand rather more about the concept and judgement that goes into making a 2/1 bid in the situation mentioned above.

I was sure there use to be more debate about this. Thank you Ron and Hrothgar for providing us with some counterpoint.

Jef

[the hog]

what's the problem?

There is no problem; its just a difference in style. Be aware that with a genuine Walsh player ot a Polish Club player though, you would have to bid 1S first. They will never believe you have 4S if you don't.

[luke warm]

ron's right that it's all a matter of style.. i just prefer to let partner know right away that <this> is a game forcing auction.. while it might not matter, using checkback or nmf somewhere, i'd rather limit the possibility of a misunderstanding

[ReginaldF]

With a good opening hand oposite partners opener and 6D 4S , I would bid 2D intending to bid S next.Otherwise what is the point of game force 2/1. The 2d bid informs P that you have an opening hand and intend to be in game somewhere except on the rare occasions U end up in 4 of a minor cos 3nt aint on and no major fit. the intended plan of bidding will start to show partner your distribution and values.

Reginald Fletcher

[the hog]

Reginald, read all the previous posts and you will see "what the point is"!

[ReginaldF]

Thanks Hog, I did read the previous letters, but all the references to bidding 1S were from advanced players who seem happier playing a system that is not strictly 2/1.

Yes if your hand is worth only one bid , make it 1S, but with this hand and the limited experience or knowledge of beg/ inters for whom these mailings are meant 2D is obvious.

I do appreciatte the time that experts and advanced players take to talk about these questions they do make me think.

ReginaldF

[bearmum]

ALWAYS 2D -- force to game - then you can ALWAYS bid S later to tell P you have longer D than S :

I replied to this BEFORE reading any other replies from the experts here@ BBO

quote author=billyjef link=board=5;threadid=1266;start=0#msg7927 date=1066923819]
This is an old debate but may be new to many reading this forum and rather than rehashing it in the sayc 2/1 forum I am going to ask for y'alls comments here. Playing 2/1 and your pd opens 1 heart; holding

AKQ9 x Q8xxxx Kx

What do you bid; 1 spade or a game forcing 2/1 bid of 2 diamonds? I know I would like to know your reasoning behind your preference also. Thank you in advanced,

Jef

Quote

[easy]

I know nothing anything about "mafia" or the polish club so my response is directed to those that play sayc, precision or 2/1. The response of 2d with this hand is automatic. There is a very simple rule to follow in the above mentioned systems: with a game forcing hand bid your hand naturally. that means bid your longest suit first. a bid of 2d does not deny a four card major. If playing 2/1 2d creates a game force. If playing sayc or precision it shows 11+ points and promises opener another bid. A rebid of 2s by the 2d responder shows an opening hand and is forcing to game.