[Gerben47]

Hi, I was wondering what level of play people expect from players with level:

a) Advanced
Expert
c) World Class

[inquiry]

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Hi, I was wondering what level of play people expect from players with level:

a) Advanced
Expert
c) World Class

If I take your question exactly as written, I suspect of players in the BBO the ones listed as advanced will be (on average) better players than the ones listed as experts. Why is this? A lot of very unskilled players with unjustified ego's have no clue what a real expert is and so they list themselves as experts. While as a group, those listing themselves as advanced know enough to know that they are not experts. That is they know more than many of those listing as experts. I imagine some of these "bbo self-entitled experts" as people who, when playing with their uncle and the little old lady down the block, often wins at rubber bridge. So what the heck, they must be experts, they win when they play in the real world, right?

But ok, that probably is not your question. The BBO help file list these as the definition of "skill" level

Advanced
Someone who has been consistently successful in clubs or minor tournaments

Expert
Someone who as enjoyed success in major national tournaments

World Class
Someone who has represented their country in World Championships

In theory there is very little wiggle room in the definition of World Class, and only a slight bit in the definition of Expert. But a lot of people can be "consistently successful in clubs or minor tournaments" especially if they participate in a community where the standard of bridge is very poor indeed.

Ben

[Erkson]

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Hi, I was wondering what level of play people expect from players with level:

a) Advanced
Expert
c) World Class

It is clearly explained in :
Bridge Base Online ---> Bridge Library ----> English ----> The Rules of this Site

Erkson

[easy]

Quote

Quote

Hi, I was wondering what level of play people expect from players with level:

a) Advanced
Expert
c) World Class

If I take your question exactly as written, I suspect of players in the BBO the ones listed as advanced will be (on average) better players than the ones listed as experts. Why is this? A lot of very unskilled players with unjustified ego's have no clue what a real expert is and so they list themselves as experts. While as a group, those listing themselves as advanced know enough to know that they are not experts. That is they know more than many of those listing as experts. I imagine some of these "bbo self-entitled experts" as people who, when playing with their uncle and the little old lady down the block, often wins at rubber bridge. So what the heck, they must be experts, they win when they play in the real world, right?

But ok, that probably is not your question. The BBO help file list these as the definition of "skill" level

Advanced
Someone who has been consistently successful in clubs or minor tournaments

Expert
Someone who as enjoyed success in major national tournaments

World Class
Someone who has represented their country in World Championships

In theory there is very little wiggle room in the definition of World Class, and only a slight bit in the definition of Expert. But a lot of people can be "consistently successful in clubs or minor tournaments" especially if they participate in a community where the standard of bridge is very poor indeed.

Ben

It seems clear to me that although Fred has decreed the above descriptions of advanced, expert, world class the users of BBO have decided differently. I personally feel that even if a person has not won a national title but has won many regional Flite A events they are likely to be consider themselves and be considered by others expert players.

ok now lets actually discuss what is an expert player. That is.. what attributes must one have to be considered an expert. For me an expert bridge player is one that a)knows how to evaluate and describe their hand during the bidding b)when defending makes few defensive errors and can draw the correct conclusions from the declarers play of the hand c) when declaring knows and makes the correct technical plays d) has the table presence to determine when to ignore the technically correct plays/bids. And how does an expert manage b and c .... by counting the hand and using their imagination to envision various holdings.

Must you know how to execute a compound squeeze to be considered an expert? Or perhaps only a strip squeeze. Or know how to false card as declarer of defender?

I would really like to hear from others their thoughts re: expert level bridge.

[inquiry]

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ok now lets actually discuss what is an expert player. That is.. what attributes must one have to be considered an expert. For me an expert bridge player is one that
a)knows how to evaluate and describe their hand during the bidding
b)when defending makes few defensive errors and can draw the correct conclusions from the declarers play of the hand
c) when declaring knows and makes the correct technical plays
d) has the table presence to determine when to ignore the technically correct plays/bids. And how does an expert manage b and c .... by counting the hand and using their imagination to envision various holdings.

Must you know how to execute a compound squeeze to be considered an expert? Or perhaps only a strip squeeze. Or know how to false card as declarer of defender?

Ok. I resemble some of your remarks. I have a few regional wins and high places and a fair number of sectional wins in open events. But have only played in two national events and only for a total of three days. Had to advance my real career, and probably only in 6 regionals and a couple dozen sectionals.

I also know not only how to execute compound squeeze, but have pulled off clash, backwash, vulnerable stopper, entry, entry-shifting, winkle, trump and many many others. This has more to do iwth an odd fasination with these plays that has result in much too tame wasted studying them at the exclusion of improving my defensive play or competitive bidding.

I also count everyhand, and frequently stumble into the right line during play or defense. So I think by your criteria I could change my skill from Advanced to Expert. But I think Fred's criteria are much better scale if people will use them correctly. Sure there are some VERY VERY good players who seldom or never play in F2F tournments. So by these criteria they would be advanced or maybe intermediate. There are others who somehow magically managed to win something and consider themselves and expert. But if we were all truthful about our F2F experiences, the self rating system would work pretty darn well.

Ben

[easy]

Ben i think you missed my point. Yes you can do the above and be an advanced player. My question was very simple....

What attributes does a player need to be considered an expert?

Winning a national event probably means you have those attributes but does not describe what they are

[the hog]

I believe an expert to have the following attributes:

1) The ability to count out a hand when needed
2) A good knowledge of technique, encompasing safety plays and at least rudimentary squeeze play, (simple, double, anything else is a bonus).
3) Excellent concentration at the table
4) The ability to visualise the opponent's hands
5) Good bidding intelligence

Other desirable attributes are:
An ability to remain calm in the face of adversity, (I guess this rules out Ira Rubin?)
Courtesy to partner and to the opponents
A good knowledge of percentages
A big spender at the bar after the evening session

[Rain]

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I believe an expert to have the following attributes:

1) The ability to count out a hand when needed
2) A good knowledge of technique, encompasing safety plays and at least rudimentary squeeze play, (simple, double, anything else is a bonus).
3) Excellent concentration at the table
4) The ability to visualise the opponent's hands
5) Good bidding intelligence

Well, what about "advanced" then?

I thought things like counting should be fundemental to intermediate/beginning players.

Simple sqzes and techniques => advanced. exotic sqzes => expert.

Can we go by what bm2k says?

"Skill Level 1 is suitable for new bridge players. Deals on Skill Level 5 are extremely challenging, even for world class players. The deals on Skill Levels 2, 3, and 4 are suitable for most club and tournament players as well as experienced social bridge players." from bbo bm2k website.

So then, level 5 people are expert. level 4-5, advanced. anything less are intermediates, beginners, novices.

I realise this only touches on the technique part, of course. But this seems more quantifiable.

Rain

[the hog]

I thought things like counting should be fundemental to intermediate/beginning players.

How many do it though?

Re squeezes, the more esoteric squeezes arise so infrequently that I would argue even an expert can get by without a study of Backwash, Clash squeezes etc. I think visualisation is far more important.

[Free]

If I hear some people on this forum and I see them online in BBO, they consider themselves "advanced" or "intermediate".

My original thought was that World Class is really everything you can imagine. If a contract is makeble, they 'll make it, if it can go down it goes down. Experts have the same bagage of WC, but they sometimes make (small) mistakes. The lower level you go, the more mistakes happen.

But aparently I was wrong. These days my skill level is private, so nobody can say "you're not worth an expert", "you're better than advanced", "you're worse than advanced" or whatever...

[flytoox]

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"Skill Level 1 is suitable for new bridge players. Deals on Skill Level 5 are extremely challenging, even for world class players. The deals on Skill Levels 2, 3, and 4 are suitable for most club and tournament players as well as experienced social bridge players." from bbo bm2k website.

So then, level 5 people are expert. level 4-5, advanced. anything less are intermediates, beginners, novices.

I realise this only touches on the technique part, of course. But this seems more quantifiable.

Rain

I actually quite agree with this std. Perhaps BBO can ask every player, esp. those want to labelled as world class or expert, to take a short exam on BBO, i.e., to play a few meaningful hands.

[inquiry]

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Perhaps BBO can ask every player, esp. those want to labelled as world class or expert, to take a short exam on BBO,

Well, I for one don't think it is worth it. First, how bad is the problem? Second, if we think there might be cheating going on during normal play, imagine what will be said when someone you KNOW is a total bridge novice passes the expert exam with flying colors...what will be said then? Third, I sort of like playing all these "EXPERTS" on the BBO. Because after I destroy them, I can say.... "if they are experts, then I must be a ..."________" you fill in the blank. But if they are experts, world class would not be high enough. (Galaxy class maybe... Warp speed Mr. Sulu" )

[flytoox]

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Quote

Perhaps BBO can ask every player, esp. those want to labelled as world class or expert, to take a short exam on BBO,

Well, I for one don't think it is worth it. First, how bad is the problem? Second, if we think there might be cheating going on during normal play, imagine what will be said when someone you KNOW is a total bridge novice passes the expert exam with flying colors...what will be said then? Third, I sort of like playing all these "EXPERTS" on the BBO. Because after I destroy them, I can say.... "if they are experts, then I must be a ..."________" you fill in the blank. But if they are experts, world class would not be high enough. (Galaxy class maybe... Warp speed Mr. Sulu" )

It should be very easy and conveinent, just try the BM2000 level 1 to 5.

[inquiry]

Ok... easy, huh?

Let me ask you this. What if I told you I solved all five, would that make me an expert? What if you create a system to monitor who has taken the 1 through 5 test and then record their level based upon how they do. What keeps someone from instant messenging their friends how to solve the five (only #5 is really difficult, btw).

What is the fasination with how people rate themselves? I have seen "gold stars" rating themselves as beginners, I have seen people who have never HEARD of jacoby transfer rating themselves as Expert. What difference does it make in the real world. Play in the BBO for a month, find people you like for personality or playing skill, and mark them as friends. Then play with your friends. There is always at least a dozen of my friends on line at any time. Some are EXPERTS, some are novices. But I enjoy interacting with all of them.

Ben

[skrshawk]

Gold stars rating themselves as beginners I believe is more of a show of humility and understanding just where they sit in the world - I'd honestly be quite scared of such a person because they will take no opponent for granted.

Take care,
John

[bhugi]

"BM2000 level 1 to 5. "

Not enough, but I think bidding skills, defence, table manner, knowledge on bridge rules, sportmanship also necessary for a players to name himself experts.

World class are those representing their region in world wide competitons, but nothing to mentioned between the skill of an expert and world class if defined in this way.

World class are usually experts but it may not be. Some region may let advanced to represent also.

[Rhutobello]

It is possible to put up a recepie for what an expert need to know. :

But since BBO is a social club, with no exam to enter, we will always be stucked with opinions about one owns abillity, and others opinions about the rightness of this abillity. (and opinions are far from facts who ever have them )

From my point of veiw, a polite nice novice, is much better to play with then an "expert" who complains over partners abillity the whole time, and then run away in the middle of the hand because they have reached a dumb contract.

You can now say that this was not an expert,,agree,, but who can tell after just a few games...maybe he/her was an expert, but just a rude expert

So I do like Ben, recommend you all to start to use the comment field for each player you encounter (right click name, write in field to the right) In a short time you will be able to get rid of many expert (if that is what you want to play with) and maybe gived some nice opinions about int..adv..players instead ;D

But I am sure this discussion will come up from time to time ;D

Have a nice day from an Int 8)

Edvin

[flytoox]

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Ok... easy, huh?

Let me ask you this. What if I told you I solved all five, would that make me an expert? What if you create a system to monitor who has taken the 1 through 5 test and then record their level based upon how they do. What keeps someone from instant messenging their friends how to solve the five (only #5 is really difficult, btw).

What is the fasination with how people rate themselves? I have seen "gold stars" rating themselves as beginners, I have seen people who have never HEARD of jacoby transfer rating themselves as Expert. What difference does it make in the real world. Play in the BBO for a month, find people you like for personality or playing skill, and mark them as friends. Then play with your friends. There is always at least a dozen of my friends on line at any time. Some are EXPERTS, some are novices. But I enjoy interacting with all of them.

Ben

Ben, I will not consider any cheating possibility. If they want to cheat, they can alway cheat.

BM Demo is very good test problem still, i think. For example, I can do 1-4 easily, but couldnt figure out 5, so somewhere between inter to adv i belong to.

I have to admit that this is still a self-set standard. And anyway, I like to play against expert. beating them makes me feel good, beaten by them give me chances to learn. So I am happy to play with expert, whethere they r truely expert or not:)

[inquiry]

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Ben, I will not consider any cheating possibility. If they want to cheat, they can alway cheat.

But I think you missed my point, which I made in the original reply about the on-line test. Which was:
"imagine what will be said when someone
you KNOW is a total bridge novice passes
the expert exam with flying colors...what
will be said then? "

People already complain about "so called" experts, who check their skill level several notches above what it really should be. Let's assume for the sake of argument not a single person cheats on the BM2000 quiz. And some people end up with "expert rating" which the general consensus is way over-rated. I think now instead of thinking this person either has a greatly inflated ego, or hasn't got a clue what a good (expert) bridge player is, people will think they must have cheated on the online exam (after all, "If I couldn't figure these things out, how could this idiot have done so? He must have cheated").

What is better for the community? We think a lot of people don't know how to rate their own skill, or we think they cheat?

A second issue, some people are very good card players, especially puzzle players, but are totally lost in the bidding (and especially competitive bidding). These quizzes don't rank that. Now, I would love to seem many more on-line quizes. Mabye in the form of questions in this forum, maybe in the BBO itself. But BridgeBase is trying to sell this educational content, so we can't expect them put it there for free. What they do show is a great teaser to show you why you should shell out the money to buy bridge master (and you can get a $10 discount if you use the "coupon" they provide for BBO players). A better solution is with Christmas coming, buy yourself and your friends the bridgemaster program and work your way through the hands. IF you can solve the vast majority rate yourself advanced, if you can solve nearly all, expert, and if you never miss even one? World Class.

But realistically such a solution for rating all players on the BBO will simply never be possible.

Ben

[JRG]

Ben made a good point.

I have several educational bridge programs, for example, Lawrence's Counting at Bridge. From time to time a play a few hands. I have to admit, I don't "get" them all right. But I surprise myself by getting quite a lot of them.

But I don't get nearly as many at the table. And I sometimes make horrible mistakes (went for 1400 at the bridge club yesterday -- must be the first time in quite a few years that I've gone for a number that big).

Oh, well. For what it is worth, I support the opinions that say an expert:

- shows good judgement (especially in the bidding)
- rarely makes a mistake - that is, is very consistent
- can count a hand when he needs to
- can visualize unseen hands (I don't mean "knows all 52 cards")
- has a good repetoire of play techniques