[cherdano]

Vul vs not at IMPs, partner opened a weak 2♥ in second seat, and RHO overcalls 3♦. I hadn't played much with this partner before, but I could assume sane preempts from what I had seen.

I held ♠AKQ7xx ♥J ♦A9 ♣87xx and bid 4♥. Sick? Insane? Reasonable? Normal?

(Don't worry, there is no story of a debate behind this, it just seemed to myself I was taking a view with 4♥ and interested in opinions.)

Arend

[pbleighton]

OK by me. At this seat and vulnerability, pd should have 6 tricks, and you have 4. Maybe you get killed in clubs, but you have to bid game, especially vul at IMPs, and I like 4H better than 3NT.

Peter

[hrothgar]

I'm not particularly found of a 4♥ bid.

Partner has a 6 card heart suit. This is all fine and dandy. However, RHO overcalled and he certainly doesn't look to be holding that strong a hand. I have a sinking suspicion that RHO is short in Hearts which means that partner has a couple trump losers in a heart contract.

Personally, I think that our best best for a plus score is to pass and hope that LHO bids 3NT or some such. 3♠ strikes me as reasonable. I might even bid 3NT.

but not 4♥

[FrancesHinden]

4H isn't silly at all.
I would bid 3S.

[Blofeld]

Not stupid.

I probably wouldn't have the guts, so would pick 3♠.

[Miron]

Maybe 3/4♠ is a good try, you need just three tricks from partner. I wouldn't bid 4♥, if they double ...

[coyot]

Agree. In 2nd place, partner's preempt has 50% of preempting you and 50% of preempting the opponents, which is one more reason for a good preempt. Noone I know would bid red vs. white for 3 down.

I would expect partner to have something like AQ10xxx or KQ10xxx in hearts and some good side values (i.e. KQ or QJx).

Of course it could turn out a disaster if you have 9card spade fit, the heart suit is far from solid and they hit you with diamond lead, but it's worth the risk, and certainly better than telling opps about your spades first

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I prefer spades, 2H maybe sound,
but does sound mean, partners suit
is as good as my spade suit or that
all of partners honors are located in
hearts?

I would probably bid 4S.

Marlowe

[cherdano]

Btw, just making sure -- I assume everyone expects 3♠ to be forcing?

[P_Marlowe]

cherdano, on Feb 16 2006, 10:19 AM, said:

Btw, just making sure -- I assume everyone expects 3♠ to be forcing?

... I would not be that sure with my regular
partner. I believe, it would be forcing for him.

Marlowe

[inquiry]

Master-minding. You can't know if the correct contract is 4♥/4♠ or even slam (partner could have Jxx AKQTxx xxx x for instance.

4♥ ends the discussion with partner. It not sure you will ever be able to reach 6♠ on the example hand, but you could be struggling in 4♥ with 4♠ cold. I would bid 3♠. But to be fair, there are some hands partner might raise a FORCING 3S to 4S that would play better in hearts. Still 4♥ ends the dialogue when you really have no idea if it is the right call.

Certainly i would force to game, however.

[Walddk]

If you must punt at this point (I would not), why not bid 3♠ en route?

"I assume everyone expects 3♠ to be forcing?", you ask. Definitely, how else can responder make opener bid again? The only bid that's non forcing is 3♥; that is merely competitive.

Letting 3♠ be non forcing is silly in my opinion. Don't go for a better partscore after a pre-empt.

Roland

[cherdano]

Jlall, on Feb 16 2006, 05:48 PM, said:

I'll vote for sick

I knew I could trust you

My main reason for choosing 4♥ over 3♠ has hardly been mentioned yet: This hand may all be about avoiding a club lead. (Imagine partner with x KQTxxx xxx xxx.)

About hearts vs spades as trumps: Obviously we prefer a 6-3 spade fit over a 6-1 heart fit. With a 6-2 spade fit I am not so sure, we may never get a heart trick if partner doesn't have ♥A.

Arend

[Walddk]

cherdano, on Feb 16 2006, 05:19 PM, said:

My main reason for choosing 4♥ over 3♠ has hardly been mentioned yet: This hand may all be about avoiding a club lead. (Imagine partner with x KQTxxx xxx xxx.)

I don't buy that. LHO is unlikely to have ♣AK after RHO's overcall at the 3-level with no ♦A. You will almost always get a diamond lead against a spade contract. What is more likely, however, is that RHO has ♣AK (if the club honours are not divided).

Avoiding spades because one is afraid of a club lead on this auction is masterminding.

Finally, if KQ10xxx in hearts and out is what you expect 2nd in hand vul against not, then I can understand your fear. Maybe you can have as little as that with your partners, I don't know. I would expect more.

Roland

[cherdano]

Walddk, on Feb 16 2006, 06:25 PM, said:

cherdano, on Feb 16 2006, 05:19 PM, said:

My main reason for choosing 4♥ over 3♠ has hardly been mentioned yet: This hand may all be about avoiding a club lead. (Imagine partner with x KQTxxx xxx xxx.)

I don't buy that. LHO is unlikely to have ♣AK after RHO's overcall at the 3-level with no ♦A. You will almost always get a diamond lead against a spade contract. What is more likely, however, is that RHO has ♣AK (if the club honours are not divided).

Avoiding spades because one is afraid of a club lead on this auction is masterminding.

Roland

I was worried about a club lead against 4♥. I think it is more likely after having bid 3♠. (Imagine RHO looking at ♠xxx, ♦KQ and ♣AQ.)

If partner raises to 4♠, he rates to be short in clubs, at least unlikely to have xxx, so in that case I doubt the lead matters much (unless it is about killing dummy's entry).

Arend

[Walddk]

cherdano, on Feb 16 2006, 05:19 PM, said:

(Imagine partner with x KQTxxx xxx xxx.)

How can your partner make 4♥ if he has that hand, on any lead? I can only count 9 tricks: 5 hearts, 3 spades and 1 diamond. If this is what you play him for, you should have bid 3♥.

Roland

[mikeh]

I vote for silly (maybe a stronger word would occur to me at the table ) 3♠ is so clearly correct that any other bid has to be silly or worse.

As for the notion that 3♠ is non-forcing: that is even sillier than not bidding 3♠.

As for the notion that you don't want a ♣ lead, well, the arguments are getting sillier by the moment. Absent the AK♣ on your left (and as Roland points out, that is impossible), you are getting a ♦ lead (except when LHO is void in the suit ).

3♠ preserves both likely games: 3N would be ridiculous, so the likely games are in a major.

[akhare]

Hmm..., 3♠ seems seems to be pretty clear -- committing to game contract in a 6-1 fit w/ a good, but hardly solid trump suit seems premature to say the least...

Atul

[cherdano]

mikeh, on Feb 16 2006, 06:44 PM, said:

I vote for silly (maybe a stronger word would occur to me at the table ) 3♠ is so clearly correct that any other bid has to be silly or worse.

As for the notion that 3♠ is non-forcing: that is even sillier than not bidding 3♠.

As for the notion that you don't want a ♣ lead, well, the arguments are getting sillier by the moment. Absent the AK♣ on your left (and as Roland points out, that is impossible), you are getting a ♦ lead (except when LHO is void in the suit ).

3♠ preserves both likely games: 3N would be ridiculous, so the likely games are in a major.

Mike, I think you share the confusion with Roland that it is RHO who is on lead against 4♥. (Other than that, I don't mind your strong words.)

Arend