[pbleighton]

I'm interested in the experience of Forum readers of Fantoni-Nunes/EHAA type systems. I know that at least a couple of you play/have played these systems, and I play one myself. For those who aren't familiar with them, here is a brief description:

EHAA
1 of a suit: 13+, 4 card majors. Unlimited. Responses are 6+, and Gorenish. Very few (or no) conventions.
1NT: 10-12
2 of a suit: 6-12, 5+ cards, may be any 5 card suit, including a 6 count with a 65432 suit at unfavorable. New suits are NF, 2NT and a raise to 3 are invitational. Jump shifts are GF.

Very aggressive, simple system. 2 bids are hard to handle for the opps, but game and slams are difficult to bid.

Fantoni-Nunes
1 of a suit: 14+ unbalanced, 15+ balanced, 5 card majors, 4 card 1D (unbalanced, usually 5+), 1C is 2+ and contains balanced hands with no 5cM outside of the NT ranges. Unlimited and forcing. 1 level responses are 1-9, 2 level responses are 10+ and GF. 2C (or 1C-2D) is a catchall GF: other 2/1s are 5+ cards. 3 level responses are 5-5 GF.
1NT: 12-14
2 of a suit: 10(9)-13, 5+ cards, unbalanced, may be any 5 card suit. 2m may be 4441. Relay continuations.

An aggressive, sophisticated system.

Chicken EHAA (my system)
1 of a suit: 13+ unbalanced, 14+ balanced, 5 card majors. Unlimited. Responses are 4+, and basically Standard American. Some conventions (NMF, 4sf, splinters, etc.), but not many. Invite with 9-10, drive to game with 11.
1NT: 10-13, includes most 5422s 10-bad 13, unless a strong suit, where we open 2X.
2 of a suit: 9(8)-12, 5+ cards, may be any 5 card suit, though we may pass 9 and 10 counts with bad 5 card suits when vulnerable. New suits are NF at the 2 level, GF at the 3 level. 2NT is a GF distributional inquiry (natural rebid). A raise to 3 is invitational, with 2+ trumps.

Although inspired by Fantoni-Nunes, this is actually much closer to EHAA (we play 5 card majors vs 4 because that is what we are used to - 4 card majors would work fine). The biggest difference is the tighter range on the 2 bids, which allow a response structure which is much better for game and slam bidding than the EHAA structure. It also provides for some nice penalty doubles

Are you playing anything like these systems?

Peter

[glen]

ETM Savage will be out shortly and combines elements of Landen/ Rajadhyaksha into the rest of the mix.

Quick definitions:
QBal - quasi-balanced, can be any 5-4-2-2, or have a six card minor
Mini QBal Range: 8/9-11 Not vul, 10/11-12 Vul


1♣: 15+ Bal, ♠s, ♣s, Majors, 18+ ♥s, GF ♦s
1♦: 4+♦s, 12 to near GF or Mini QBal 4+♦s without 4cM
1♥: 5+♥s & 12-17 or Mini QBal with 4/5♥s OR both majors 8-11 (can have 4♥s & longer♠s if 8-9)
1♠: 5+♠s & 12-14 or Mini QBal with 4/5♠s OR 10+ both majors & 5+♠s OR 8-14 4♠s & longer ♣s OR 8-11 4♠s & longer ♦s
1NT: 11/12-14 Not vul, 12/13-14 Vul, QBal
2♣: 8-14, 5+♣s, not QBal if just 5♣s, fewer than 4♠s
2♦: 8-11, 5+♦s, not QBal if just 5♦s, fewer than 4♠s
2♥: 8-11, 5+♥s, not QBal if just 5♥s, fewer than 4♠s
2♠: 8-11, 5+♠s, not QBal if just 5♠s, fewer than 4♥s
2NT: 20/21-22 Bal
3X: 0-7, 6 or longer suit, quite random not vul

[pbleighton]

Glen:

Interesting. The fact that your 1H bid is both wider ranging and better defined in shape then 1S reminds me of The Way Forward, if you know that system.

Peter

[glen]

Yes, this system is also based on some of the discussions and links given under this category for non-traditional types.

[SteelWheel]

My wife and I don't play together that much--but when we do, I make her play EHAA. She just can't get used to the four-card major aspect, though. So in deference to her, we play basically "standard EHAA", but with five-card majors, and some of the other 2/1 gadgets, like NMF. It works ok, but I miss the utter primitive-ness of the plain old four-card major approach. Oh well.

In general, if I'm about to play a matchpoint session with a new partner, and have little time to discuss methods, EHAA is the way to go, I think--if you have very few understandings, there will be very few mis-understandings.

Just my two cents' worth.

[Chamaco]

pbleighton, on Feb 4 2006, 12:07 AM, said:

Chicken EHAA (my system)
1 of a suit: 13+ unbalanced, 14+ balanced, 5 card majors.  Unlimited. Responses are 4+, and basically Standard American. Some conventions (NMF, 4sf, splinters, etc.), but not many. Invite with 9-10, drive to game with 11.
1NT: 10-13, includes most 5422s 10-bad 13, unless a strong suit, where we open 2X.
2 of a suit: 9(8)-12, 5+ cards, may be any 5 card suit, though we may pass 9 and 10 counts with bad 5 card suits when vulnerable.  New suits are NF at the 2 level, GF at the 3 level.  2NT is a GF distributional inquiry (natural rebid).  A raise to 3 is invitational, with 2+ trumps.

Although inspired by Fantoni-Nunes, this is actually much closer to EHAA (we play 5 card majors vs 4 because that is what we are used to - 4 card majors would work fine).  The biggest difference is the tighter range on the 2 bids, which allow a response structure which is much better for game and slam bidding than the EHAA structure.  It also provides for some nice penalty doubles

I think playing 2-level Fantunes openings requires to use 1NT = 12-14 , even offshape as a catchall opening, to handle hands too weak for a 1-level opening but too dangerous/defensive for a 2 level opener.

Adopting the F-N phylosophy means passing balanced 10/11 hands, which after all is not a tragedy.

[zeusie]

I have been playing an interesting toy for about 10 years with various partners.

1st and 2nd seat
1♣: artificial Force 13+ unbalanced 16+ balanced
1♦: 10-12 balanced or semi-balanced (could be 5-4-2-2 with any suits)
1♥: 4+ hearts; 8-12 hcp; could have longer minor
1♠: 4+ spades; 8-12 hcp; could have longer minor
1NT 13-15; balanced or semi balanced
2♣/2♦: 5+ in bid suit, no 4-card major, if only 5 card suit must have shortness and 4+ cards in other minor
2♥/2♠: 6-12 hcp; 6 or 7 cards; if 6/7 hcp then unbalanced it 8-12 then 6-3-2-2 or 7-2-2-2
2NT: Both minors

Has worked pretty well in the local tournaments.

Thank you
- zeus

[pbleighton]

"I think playing 2-level Fantunes openings requires to use 1NT = 12-14 , even offshape as a catchall opening, to handle hands too weak for a 1-level opening but too dangerous/defensive for a 2 level opener."

I agree with you for purposes of forcing 1 bids. I play them NF, but respond with 4 counts.

Peter

[Chamaco]

pbleighton, on Feb 7 2006, 01:59 PM, said:

"I think playing 2-level Fantunes openings requires to use 1NT = 12-14 , even offshape as a catchall opening, to handle hands too weak for a 1-level opening but too dangerous/defensive for a 2 level opener."

I agree with you for purposes of forcing 1 bids. I play them NF, but respond with 4 counts.

Peter

Alright but then again, how do you open the following ?

AKJ-AQx-AKJx-AQx

or

AKQxxx-Ax-AKQx-x

[pbleighton]

"Alright but then again, how do you open the following ?

AKJ-AQx-AKJx-AQx

or

AKQxxx-Ax-AKQx-x"

1D.

1S.



Maybe it's just my luck, but I don't get dealt these hands too often.

I've been playing this way for almost a year (mostly IMPs), and haven't found it to be a problem.

Peter

[pigpenz]

i played for many years
1NT 10--13
4Card Majors
2♣ strong
2♦ 5-10hcp 5diamonds and 4+hearts or 4+clubs
2♥ 5-10hcp 5hearts and 4+spades or 4+clubs
2♠5-10hcp 5spades and 4+clubs or diamonds

you cans set up various relays to describe min/max and corresponding suit principle to show which side suit you have.

Add in the Overcall Structure (spaulding/fout/twineham/laycock) and you got yourself a system.

[awm]

Some of the systems people are posting here don't seem to have much to do with the topic. Four card major systems with strong club or strong 2♣ and weak two bids don't seem real related to what Fantoni and Nunes play.

It's an interesting question whether the weak notrump could be removed from their approach. Personally I'm not a fan of 12-14 notrumps at vulnerable especially; it seems that too often you reach the "wrong" partscore, and when the occasional penalty double comes you're often going for too big a number to compensate for what the opponents can make. Then again, Fantoni-Nunes have had plenty of success (even at MPs) with their weak notrumps.

The simple way to remove the 12-14 would seem to be making 1NT 14-16 balanced, and just passing balanced 12-13 in first/second seat. This is what Roth-Stone advocated, so perhaps it is not that bad to pass with bad balanced hands. You can then incorporate the "weak notrump" into the third/fourth seat 1♣ opening without much loss (because of transfer responses partner will not be dropped in 1M with 26 combined, and the "nonsensical" 2NT jump can show 12-13 flat).

If you don't like passing the 12-13 balanced hands, another option might be adding these into 1♣. You lose the "always strong" property of the one-level openings, but it's really only for this one opening (the others are still 14+). After tinkering with this idea for a while, I came up with the transfer opening system (this is very different from TOSR or Moscito in that the transfers show five card suits and unlimited hands). Unfortunately transfer openings are not allowed at most levels of play in the US anyway, so I haven't had much chance to experiment with playing these methods (in principle they should be mid-chart and allowed at open regional level events, but since there is no "approved defense" we can't actually play them).

[pigpenz]

awm, on Feb 7 2006, 12:58 PM, said:

Some of the systems people are posting here don't seem to have much to do with the topic.

Part of the topic was EHAA

[awm]

pigpenz, on Feb 7 2006, 04:42 PM, said:

awm, on Feb 7 2006, 12:58 PM, said:

Some of the systems people are posting here don't seem to have much to do with the topic.

Part of the topic was EHAA

My impression was that the key elements of these systems include:

(1) Natural and unlimited one-level openings.
(2) No artificial "strong bid."
(3) Natural two-level preempts with a wide range of hand patterns.

I was just commenting that some of the systems suggested don't seem to have any of these properties, much less all of them.

[luis]

Hi, some quick comments:

You must have a forcing bid, gambling on not needing it for a year since pd responds with 4+ is not a good idea in my opinion.

You say your sys allows some nice penalty doubles, I personally hate penatly doubles, they are based in years of playing against bad opponents, if you want to play with the big guys you need action doubles, t/o doubles, card-showing doubles and when everything is bad you always have the penalty pass. That is my opinion.

I've been playing a Fantunes system with the openings and some basic continuations intact with my pd, we have added a modified version of Keri to the 12-14 NT. So far I'm very very happy with the system, it has just removed any sort of bidding missunderstanding we might have had in the past.


Luis

[Gerben42]

If you want to get rid of your "forcing bid" perhaps play a "Polish EHAA":

EHAA but with the addition that 1♣ is either natural or any GF hand. I dunno...
]

[SteelWheel]

There are some system writeups of attempts to combine EHAA with a strong club system, and also a Polish type system as well:

http://www.abo.fi/~j...ridge/ehaap.pdf

http://www.abo.fi/~j...ridge/bclub.pdf


Actually, IIRC, the original EHAA pamphlet by Eric and Randy, made some vague reference to the possibility of combining EHAA with a strong club approach, but didn't really go into specifics. They did show a CC filled out for EHAA with strong club, but hard to determine exactly what other modifications or compromises they had made, just by looking at the CC.

[Sigi_BC84]

SteelWheel, on Feb 10 2006, 07:39 PM, said:

There are some system writeups of attempts to combine EHAA with a strong club system, and also a Polish type system as well:

http://www.abo.fi/~j...ridge/ehaap.pdf
http://www.abo.fi/~j...ridge/bclub.pdf

These are some really nice writeups (that guy has got writeups about other systems/conventions as well, all quite readable and typeset well).
--Sigi

[SteelWheel]

Not intended to get further off-topic, but:

I've had almost no experience playing with/against Overcall Structure--I do vaguely recall playing against a few Flt B types who were trying it out, and proceeded to hand us several large numbers on part score type hands..but I really didn't know whether to attribute this to the players or the system.

Is anybody interested in playing online some as an ultimate in-your-face pair? Could play EHAA for when our side opens, and overcall structure when they do. Guaranteed to have a wild time. Might even produce a good story or two (and that's really the most important thing now, isn't it?).

If anyone's up for it, PM me.

[Gerben42]

My Fantunes system has been updated to version 1.10

Also available: A simple version.

All information at Gerben's Fantunes Page