[cherdano]

Simple sequence:
(2♠)-X-(P)-3♠*
(P)-4NT

What does this 4NT mean?

Arend

(*) = Lebensohl

[Gerben42]

Quantitative, too strong to bid 3NT at this point.

[FrancesHinden]

Natural.

It's not that silly to play it as Blackwood for hearts, however...
If 3S promises 4 hearts (which it tends to), then how does opener agree hearts in a forcing manner?

[Free]

very strong balanced... Don't see any other way.

[luis]

FrancesHinden, on Feb 9 2006, 03:19 PM, said:

Natural.

It's not that silly to play it as Blackwood for hearts, however...
If 3S promises 4 hearts (which it tends to), then how does opener agree hearts in a forcing manner?

Cuebidding of course.
3♠ is either hearts + stoppers or hearts without stoppers depending on your agreements about fast/slow leb.
In either case when the doubler has a very strong hand with hearts it is cheap to bid 4♣ or 4♦ agreeing hearts and showing a very good hand.
4NT has to be natural, not 4♥ but a hand that is too strong to bid 3NT.

Luis

[cherdano]

luis, on Feb 9 2006, 06:30 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Feb 9 2006, 03:19 PM, said:

Natural.

It's not that silly to play it as Blackwood for hearts, however...
If 3S promises 4 hearts (which it tends to), then how does opener agree hearts in a forcing manner?

Cuebidding of course.
3♠ is either hearts + stoppers or hearts without stoppers depending on your agreements about fast/slow leb.
In either case when the doubler has a very strong hand with hearts it is cheap to bid 4♣ or 4♦ agreeing hearts and showing a very good hand.
4NT has to be natural, not 4♥ but a hand that is too strong to bid 3NT.

Luis

Hmm, I would have taken 4m as natural forcing, searching for the best strain. That leaves 4♠ as a cuebid agreeing hearts.

Arend

[mikeh]

The correct answer is probably: "it depends upon agreement", but of course you don't have one (few would).

So a useful philosophy, which has long been espoused by the editors of The Bridge World, is "if an undiscussed bid can be natural, it should be natural" is my fallback position.

This is an infrequent situation, but ambiguity could be resolved by agreeing that 4♠ sets ♥ as trump, and shows a hand too good for 4♥. Should it be keycard? I don't think so, but I am biased in that, if I had to give up one very common convention, high on my list would be keycard.

Look at it this way: keycard will be useful when the doubler has a hand on which the only information he needs is the number of keycards (and the trump queen). How often will he have that hand, considering that advancer is unlimited?

A general force will be important whenever doubler has slam interest but needs cooperation from partner, and, more than numeric information re keycards, specific information re certain suits and/or overall slam-interest.

So for me: we lose keycard entirely (altho one could make an argument that 5♣ here could be keycard in ♥, the frequency of use would be too low compared to the potential of error for most).

4N natural, 4♠ sets trump and tries for slam, and 4minor natural and forcing.

[pclayton]

4 of a minor would be natural and forcing;

We don't double with a 2 suiters (as a rule);

So 4N is natural and quantitative. I'd vote for 19-21 or so (stronger hands cue).

4N is also non-forcing.

[HeartA]

cherdano, on Feb 9 2006, 08:51 AM, said:

Simple sequence:
(2♠)-X-(P)-3♠*
(P)-4NT

What does this 4NT mean?

Arend

(*) = Lebensohl

Ace asking (classic Blackwood). 4NT bidder has a long suit.

How could 4NT be natural and quantitive while partner's strength (and shape) is not limited? 3S could be something of good 11 to 20 (or even more).

[FrancesHinden]

luis, on Feb 9 2006, 05:30 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Feb 9 2006, 03:19 PM, said:

Natural.

It's not that silly to play it as Blackwood for hearts, however...
If 3S promises 4 hearts (which it tends to), then how does opener agree hearts in a forcing manner?

Cuebidding of course.
3♠ is either hearts + stoppers or hearts without stoppers depending on your agreements about fast/slow leb.
In either case when the doubler has a very strong hand with hearts it is cheap to bid 4♣ or 4♦ agreeing hearts and showing a very good hand.
4NT has to be natural, not 4♥ but a hand that is too strong to bid 3NT.

Luis

3♠ doesn't absolutely promise hearts in this auction: what is responder to the double to bid on a 2344 18-count, say? It's different from after a 1NT opening and overcall because then 3m would have been forcing (and double is available for take-out), here 3m is non-forcing and double illegal.

[000002]

4NT asking for NO. of the Aces.
the natural 4nt is n't practical.

[Codo]

Quote

How could 4NT be natural and quantitive while partner's strength (and shape) is not limited? 3S could be something of good 11 to 20 (or even more

Doubler clarifies his hand his double could have been from 12 to 20 (or more), so that responder can name the contract.
4 NT not just could be natural, in my view it should be natural.. Besides: It is possible to show nearly any given hand in this auction, from strong one- and twosuiters and "normal" NT ranges, so you do not need 4 NT for anything non-natural.

Quote

4NT asking for NO. of the Aces.
the natural 4nt is n't practical.

Okay, so what do you do with strong hands, which did not qualify for a direct NT bid?
And if you are just searching for aces, why didn`t you bid 4 NT over 2 Spade?

[whereagles]

Strong balanced hand opposite cue = 32+ hcp. Bid 6NT

[Blofeld]

Wouldn't have occurred to me that 4NT might be blackwood on this auction.

[000002]

(2♠)-3NT：when i hold 20HCPs and a balanced hand with ♠ stopper ,what i overcall after 2♠ preempt? i think 3NT only.
total 32HCPs means the natural 4NT bidder's hand is between 19-21Hcps,so it's not practical.

(2♠)-x-(p)-3♠
(p) --4♠ this is (1444/16HCPs+) or (20HCPs/balanced/without ♠ stopper).4minor is forcing now,so 4NT is the blackwood.for example:
A
KQx
KQJxxxx
KX
When i hold this hand,i can't bid 4♦ since my need for partner is Aces ONLY,and i am afraid his 5♦ raise when he hold as below:
Jxx
AJx
Axx
QJxx
Of course i can raise slam opposite this hand,but when i change ♥ k to ♣ace:
A
Qxx
KQxxxxx
AK
did you think is it enough for your raise small slam?

how to handle when i hold a 20hcps and 5-5both minors?(EG:AK x AKxxx AQxxx ).i deem it isn't 4NT,4♦ then 5/6♣ ,or 5♠ leap directly.

sorry for my edit 2times

[cherdano]

Blofeld, on Feb 10 2006, 08:41 PM, said:

Wouldn't have occurred to me that 4NT might be blackwood on this auction.

Neither to me. However, in "the" German bidding panel, this bidding situation was given with this hand: ♠Kx ♥AKQxx ♦AQJx ♣KT. A huge majority of the German experts voted 4NT, and to my huge surprise all 3 who commented assumed it was Blackwood. Quote: "4NT cannot be quantitative, because it is not in reply to 2NT or 3NT".

Anyway, the irritating thing is that I know American bidding much much much better than German bidding. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing...

Arend

[Gerben42]

Quote

Anyway, the irritating thing is that I know American bidding much much much better than German bidding. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing...

That's a good thing, Arend. I thought I knew the hand from somewhere, I thought was 4NT quantitative there too.

[000002]

Gerben42, on Feb 11 2006, 07:26 AM, said:

Quote

Anyway, the irritating thing is that I know American bidding much much much better than German bidding. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing...

That's a good thing, Arend. I thought I knew the hand from somewhere, I thought was 4NT quantitative there too.

i am very interesting to learn where and why.

[cherdano]

000002, on Feb 11 2006, 02:37 PM, said:

Gerben42, on Feb 11 2006, 07:26 AM, said:

Quote

Anyway, the irritating thing is that I know American bidding much much much better than German bidding. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing...

That's a good thing, Arend. I thought I knew the hand from somewhere, I thought was 4NT quantitative there too.

i am very interesting to learn where and why.

Not sure this is the right forum to discuss this, but the biggest problem with German standard bidding is that I am not even sure it exists. There is an official standard system, but it doesn't (yet) have big support among the experts (or among bridge teachers). The is no instance like the Bridge World, where discussions about standard treatments for adv/experts would take place. Even among less experienced club players, you will find a huge variety of systems depending on where you go (Forum D based on the French system, SAYC, "Mindener Karo" which seems to be a strong diamond system, Swiss ACOL, "Treff-Karo"). Add a lot of Polish systems among more experienced players to the mix.

Arend