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Your LHO opens 1♣, RHO responds 1♥, LHO raises 2♥, two passes to you.
What are the shapes you would bid 2♠ with, in what cases would you double? Does double show unbid suits or is it takeout of hearts? Does 2♠ promise 5 spades, or could it be 4 of them?
Arend
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Balancing, two spades vs double
#1
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Posted 2006-February-06, 11:45
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
#2 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2006-February-06, 11:50
A lot depends on style. For instance, I would say X of 1H in this auction can be something like a 4-5 8 count, not necessarily an opening hand. Many would disagree. I would also overcall 1S very lightly in this position. Many would not.
Would you overcall Qxxxxx xx Kxx xx red/white? If not, I'm sure you'd balance with 2S. So 2S could be a 6 card suit. etc.
Will partner prebalance with short hearts? If not it may be necessary to balance with heart length.
For me, 2S would pretty much not exist. I would have bid earlier. X would imply clubs, so "takeout of hearts" would be a good description. I would not bid 2S on a 4 card suit, and see people do this all the time and really just don't get it. There's no reason to bid 2S on a 4 card suit. You either have the right shape to X, or you have heart length in which case you can pass. But in a style that doesn't overcall very lightly, I would say 2S is usually 5, sometimes 6, and almost 0 % chance of being 4.
Would you overcall Qxxxxx xx Kxx xx red/white? If not, I'm sure you'd balance with 2S. So 2S could be a 6 card suit. etc.
Will partner prebalance with short hearts? If not it may be necessary to balance with heart length.
For me, 2S would pretty much not exist. I would have bid earlier. X would imply clubs, so "takeout of hearts" would be a good description. I would not bid 2S on a 4 card suit, and see people do this all the time and really just don't get it. There's no reason to bid 2S on a 4 card suit. You either have the right shape to X, or you have heart length in which case you can pass. But in a style that doesn't overcall very lightly, I would say 2S is usually 5, sometimes 6, and almost 0 % chance of being 4.
#3
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Posted 2006-February-06, 11:53
Spades and clubs, longer clubs. I would expect something like 4225.
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#4
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Posted 2006-February-07, 03:28
What would you do with 4=2=2=5, Justin?
Also, do you never balance 2♠ with a 4-card suit over 1♥-2♥? The advantage of bidding 2♠ with shapes like 4=2=(5-2) is obviously that a takeout double always promises 3-cards in both minors. (I do that, but only when I have discussed this with partner.)
By the way, the bid that made me start this discussion was too horrible for words: I bid 2♠ with ♠JT9x ♥QJx ♦ATxx ♣xx. The *insert male version of LOL* on the left obviously seemed to like his hands (and thought before 2♥), and since "solid citizens bid when they have points rather than when they have shape" (I learnt this on RGB from, I believe, David Burn) I was sure he would go to 3♥. Which was indeed down one for another undeserved top...
Arend
Also, do you never balance 2♠ with a 4-card suit over 1♥-2♥? The advantage of bidding 2♠ with shapes like 4=2=(5-2) is obviously that a takeout double always promises 3-cards in both minors. (I do that, but only when I have discussed this with partner.)
By the way, the bid that made me start this discussion was too horrible for words: I bid 2♠ with ♠JT9x ♥QJx ♦ATxx ♣xx. The *insert male version of LOL* on the left obviously seemed to like his hands (and thought before 2♥), and since "solid citizens bid when they have points rather than when they have shape" (I learnt this on RGB from, I believe, David Burn) I was sure he would go to 3♥. Which was indeed down one for another undeserved top...
Arend
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
#5 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2006-February-07, 09:02
with 4225 I would have overcalled 1S already or passed.
after 1M p 2M p p with 42(52) I would X if I was inclined to bid.
after 1M p 2M p p with 42(52) I would X if I was inclined to bid.
#6
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Posted 2006-February-07, 13:55
I remember once bidding 2S here with something like xxxxx x KJxxx xx, about two years ago. They doubled and partner tabled a wonderful 14-count with nice support, we won quite a few IMPs on the hand (at my level you have to cherish those victories). I can still hear them complaining about my bid, but I still think that pass followed by 2S is right (my older partner did not approve of my bid btw, but was happy with the result).
I think that we (Arend and I) have talked about this sequence quite a while ago, I'm not sure what we agreed in the end. I think that nowadays I (try to) play the style Justin describes, overcalling 1S aggressively so balancing with 2S is rare. If I do balance with 2S then I must have a weak 5+ suit with some shape.
I think that we (Arend and I) have talked about this sequence quite a while ago, I'm not sure what we agreed in the end. I think that nowadays I (try to) play the style Justin describes, overcalling 1S aggressively so balancing with 2S is rare. If I do balance with 2S then I must have a weak 5+ suit with some shape.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.
- hrothgar
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#7
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Posted 2006-February-07, 17:48
cherdano, on Feb 6 2006, 12:45 PM, said:
Your LHO opens 1♣, RHO responds 1♥, LHO raises 2♥, two passes to you.
What are the shapes you would bid 2♠ with, in what cases would you double? Does double show unbid suits or is it takeout of hearts? Does 2♠ promise 5 spades, or could it be 4 of them?
Arend
What are the shapes you would bid 2♠ with, in what cases would you double? Does double show unbid suits or is it takeout of hearts? Does 2♠ promise 5 spades, or could it be 4 of them?
Arend
Well this is very much a style issue.
After 1C-P-1H-P
a. I don't have 4S and 4D and a 11 count or 5-4, either way and a 9 count
b. I don't have 5 spades and a 12 count
c. I don't have 5 decent spades and a 9 count
d. I don't have AQTxx or better in spades
So if I bid 2S later, my typical hand is 5 bad spades and about 8-11 ish. With a singleton heart I might have less, especially if NV. ( NV I might have QTxxx x xxxx Kxx) I might have 4324 shape with 4 good spades and a pretty good hand (12-14 ish)
but in general with 3 hearts I will pass unless I know partner is too weak to act (because I am pretty strong).
I guess 4225 shape is also possible. In general, I don't expect partner to correct very often, and I expect him to almost never raise without 4 trumps and good values.
Josh
#8
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Posted 2006-February-07, 18:00
cherdano, on Feb 6 2006, 12:45 PM, said:
Your LHO opens 1♣, RHO responds 1♥, LHO raises 2♥, two passes to you.
What are the shapes you would bid 2♠ with, in what cases would you double? Does double show unbid suits or is it takeout of hearts? Does 2♠ promise 5 spades, or could it be 4 of them?
Arend
What are the shapes you would bid 2♠ with, in what cases would you double? Does double show unbid suits or is it takeout of hearts? Does 2♠ promise 5 spades, or could it be 4 of them?
Arend
Oh yeah the second question. In general, balancing x's are 3 suited, although most would make an exception if the opps guaranteed 5 cards in one of their other suits.
E.G 1H-P-1N-P-2C-P-P-x is probably only 2 suited if 1H promised 5.
But in the auction in question:
1C-P-1H-P
2H-P-P-x, the x is 3 suited. In fact I expect the x'ler to have better clubs than diamonds on average, since he didn't x 1H.
Josh
#9
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Posted 2006-February-08, 10:44
DOUBLE certify/affirm the 2nd suit--minor;2♠ deny it.
#10
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Posted 2006-February-08, 12:51
What would you do with a hand like:
AQxx
xxxx
xx
AKx
I find it hard to believe that "most people would bid 1♠ over 1♣-P-1♥" with this hand. Perhaps some of you would. When 2♥ is passed back though, it is very tempting to balance. Give partner some hand like:
JTxx
x
KQxx
xxxx
Kxx
xx
AQxx
xxxx
It seems like 2♠ has pretty good play. The opponents may or may not be making 2♥ (on the first hand they probably are, the second hand it could go one off). I wouldn't expect partner to bid over 2♥ with either of those hands (or even with a slightly better hand, in fact) despite a propensity for light "pre-balancing" doubles. This seems like a potential swing board where a partscore is making at both tables, and it's extremely tempting to balance on the hand above.
If you do balance, 2♠ is the only real option. The shape is totally wrong for double.
AQxx
xxxx
xx
AKx
I find it hard to believe that "most people would bid 1♠ over 1♣-P-1♥" with this hand. Perhaps some of you would. When 2♥ is passed back though, it is very tempting to balance. Give partner some hand like:
JTxx
x
KQxx
xxxx
Kxx
xx
AQxx
xxxx
It seems like 2♠ has pretty good play. The opponents may or may not be making 2♥ (on the first hand they probably are, the second hand it could go one off). I wouldn't expect partner to bid over 2♥ with either of those hands (or even with a slightly better hand, in fact) despite a propensity for light "pre-balancing" doubles. This seems like a potential swing board where a partscore is making at both tables, and it's extremely tempting to balance on the hand above.
If you do balance, 2♠ is the only real option. The shape is totally wrong for double.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
#11 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2006-February-08, 13:12
awm, on Feb 8 2006, 01:51 PM, said:
What would you do with a hand like:
AQxx
xxxx
xx
AKx
I find it hard to believe that "most people would bid 1♠ over 1♣-P-1♥" with this hand. Perhaps some of you would. When 2♥ is passed back though, it is very tempting to balance.
AQxx
xxxx
xx
AKx
I find it hard to believe that "most people would bid 1♠ over 1♣-P-1♥" with this hand. Perhaps some of you would. When 2♥ is passed back though, it is very tempting to balance.
Indeed I would bid 1S over 1H. I agree that most people would not.
Had I passed, I would not balance (unless the opponents always have 4 for their raise).
#12
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Posted 2006-February-08, 13:29
I don't think there is one answer to this question.
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