[benlessard]

On a 1nt opening or rebid whatever is your pts range.

Having an invitationnal hand.. like

akxx
axx
xxxx
xx

facing 12-14


or

xxx
Kxxx
kQxxx
x

facing 15-17


Do you think its wothwhile to invite and stay at 2nt if partner is minimum.

or the do or die approach suit your style ?


Me i don't mind playing 2 in a suit to find out game was a 55% shot.

However i hate playing 2nt.


When you play 2h instead of 4h you're winning some IMPS if you you make 8 or 9 tricks or 7 if they would X you at 4h.

But when stopping at 2nt you're only winning when you make 8 tricks. Or if they would X you at 3nt. (quite rare imho).


Of course playing a some 3nt with 23 pts requires some declarer play abilities.

And Im not talking about strong player vs weak defender. Im taking about playing vs same strenght opps.

Ben

[Chamaco]

The two example hands for responder are VERY DIFFERENT in my view: one is aceless, the other not, and that is a huge difference in my opinion.

Quote

akxx
axx
xxxx
xx

facing 12-14

IMO this is a game force hand opposite whatever minimum opening.
Even playing in Notrump, aces are worth more than 4 hcp.
I'll be happy to play 3NT with 23 hcp if I am dealt this hand as responder.

I might treat a hand with 2A+ a K as invitational ONLY in the case of 4333 shape and absolutely worthless intermdiates (e.g. no 10s and 98s around), or if the K is doubleton.

Quote

xxx
Kxxx
kQxxx
x

facing 15-17

With this hand I'd invite only. 3NT might depend on whether the diamonds run, but I have no way to find out, and the club singleton is a danger warning.
I might move towards game if the small xxxs were 109s

[whereagles]

I think 2NT invites should be made only on 4333-ish hands with broken suits. With a 5-card suit you either pass 1NT or bid 3NT.

[Free]

both invite for me: first hand we don't have a source of tricks, second hand we might not have an entry for ♦. The last hand is quite perfect for heeman where you can show an invite with 4M and 5+m...

[inquiry]

benlessard, on Feb 1 2006, 04:03 AM, said:

Do you think its wothwhile to invite and stay at 2nt if partner is minimum. or the do or die approach suit your style ?


Me i don't mind playing 2 in a suit to find out game was a 55% shot. However i hate playing 2nt.

If you are so concerned about playing in 2NT on invite sequences, I suggest you take a look at ETM Victory or one of its brothers on the bridgematters.com site. Their, the NT range (for all bids showing balanced hands) is limited to 2HCP. A premise of this being, there is not "reason" to issue invites with a range that can vary by most one jack.

[Chamaco]

Quote

Amusingly, contrary to Chamaco's post I would invite with the first hand (unless a spade fit was found in which case I'd bid game)

I ran a quick simulation on this, and from the first 50 hands (I do not have a hand analyzer so I just look by myself), it indeed supports your evaluation :-)
(cool, I learned something today ! )

No simulation yet for hand 2.

[han]

I agree with Justin, the second hand looks quite good to me, while I'm not enthousiastic about the first at all (unless we have a spade fit).

[awm]

The first hand seems like a classic invite opposite the 12-14 (barring spade fit).

The second hand is more interesting. It seems unlikely that 2NT will play well with this distributional holding: if partner has a moderate diamond fit you may make 3NT, and if not you're fairly likely to go down at 2NT. I'd like to be able to show invitational values and stop in 2♥ or 3♦ when partner doesn't like his hand; this is especially good if partner can hear about both my suits on the way. In some sense the worst possible hand for partner includes three hearts and two diamonds, which is fortunately a hand that can pass 2♥ as a Keri-style invite:

AKx
Axx
xx
KJxxx

If playing standard methods where you can't invite and get out in any contract besides 2NT (barring a major suit fit) I think I'd bite the bullet and bid game on this hand, but I'd prefer better methods.

[Kalvan14]

Jlall, on Feb 1 2006, 09:58 AM, said:

Amusingly, contrary to Chamaco's post I would invite with the first hand (unless a spade fit was found in which case I'd bid game) and bid game on the second hand.

You beat me to the punch: I'm of the same opinion. If it has to play game, the 1st one would be possibly better in 4M, on a Moysian fit.

[pclayton]

I'd make a Keri invite on #1.

On 2, I'd blast if pard showed hearts. If pard denied hearts, I'd bid the game Vul at IMPs and invite otherwise.

[benlessard]

Your answers are confirming what is bothering me.

With hand 2 if there is no h fit and if the diamond run you're got good chance of making 3nt if they don't you gonna be down even in 2nt. So that in a sense mean pushing to 3nt is the % bid. Because the likelyhood of making exactly 8 tricks is low. While the odds for making game are ok.

But with most hand if you can invite and stop in 2 in a suit that change everything since youre making 2♥ or 2♠ and you're trating a + for a - The likelyhood of making "only" 8 or 9 trick is good. While the odds for making game are ok.

Playing regular stayman when parter confirm the fit you don't know if he min or max so you have to push again to 3h/s or to 2nt ...and at that point youre better off in 4 because the likelyhood of making exactly 9 tricks arent so good.




Anyway im planning to play a stayman where i play 2 in a suit or game. And if we dont have fit we are playing 3nt. I just hope the suits don't break too badly when we are on those streched Vul game


example 1

2c----relay to 2d-------2h inv with 5h+-------2s inv with 5s+

2d--- stayman.showing at least inv values
--------------------------------------2h 4/5 h min----2s 4/5 s min---2nt without maj---3c with h max ---3d max with s---



or example 2


2c asking for 4h minimum.----(2d No) ------2h inv with 5-6-7h
------------------------------------(2h 4h min)
2d asking for 4s minimum.-----(2h No) -----2s inv with 5-6-7 S
-------------------------------------(2s 4s min).



This will give me considerable slam bidding space (because all 2nt is GF) without playing transfers. But i cannot stop in 2nt (and I don't want to). So its a paradox if we find fit and partner is minimum we can stop in 2 of a suit but if we dont find fit we will play 3nt wheter partner is minimum or not. Does it make sense ? I think so but im not sure.




So facing hand 1


If partner is minimum with 4h or 4s i would play 2h/2s

if he doenst have maj or if hes maximum we will play game.


on hand 2 we will play game.
with a slightly weaker hand we could stop in 2H or play game but this 1 if we find a h fit you want to be in game even facing a minimum.



kxx
jxxx
kjxxx
x

facing a minimum 15 bad 16 with 4h/5h do you stop in 2h or bid 4 ?
(no need to invite you already know partner is minimum)





Keri somewhat solve this problems.

But i wont play Keri because.-- it got transfer and playing transfers when 12-14 Vul is costly. And also with an inv hand base on a long maj you cannot stop in 2M wich is very bad also. and inv hand with ♥KJxxxx isnt the same as ♥QJxx.







Another amusing thing that most people don't know (or don't care) is that partner is slightly more likely to be maximum (14 in 12-14)on the first hand then to be maximum on the 2nd (17 in 15-17) its a very slight statistical bias that shoulndt change your decision.





Ben

[whereagles]

benlessard, you're coming to the same conclusion some french theoreticians arrived a few years ago. With a good 5-card suit you just sign-off or blast 3NT