[Dwingo]

Tough one. All the standard Jacoby 2NT responses has some distortion or the other.

Singleton ♦A and 4 card ♣ seem to be the biggest distortion. The least distortion seems to be 4♥ or 3NT. 3NT also looks a bit shaky with the ♦A singleton and nothing in ♠. So 4♥ is my bid

[Winstonm]

hrothgar, on Jan 31 2006, 07:10 AM, said:

DrTodd13, on Jan 31 2006, 09:12 AM, said:

I think I'm going to try 3N here.  Partner knows that I know about the singleton and yet I'm still offering 3N.  I must have 4 good ♦ and have already shown 4♥.  Give partner the info and let him make the decision.

3NT would be "serious"...

Given the number of people suggesting that 4♥ is a picture bid suggesting devaluing the hand based on wasted Diamond values, its hard to justify Serious slam interest.

I'm not fond of Jacoby anyway and less still of this 3N serious concept: what's wrong with 3H as serious and 3N as a suggestion to play?

With no other good choice, I have to bid 4H - problem is partner might still make a move with a void and 6 trumps: AQx, AKxxxx, void, Qxxx or the like and we lose two clubs and a ruff in 5H.

Winston

[FrancesHinden]

Carefully not answering the question, I observe that given the two hands you have presented, I'm not entirely sure what I'd like the final contract to be... so I don't think I'd be blaming this board for losing the match.

4H would be very unlucky to go off. 6H is not vastly worse than the SA onside. 3NT by responder is the only 100% game however, so I'd be pleased if I played there rather than 4H!

[keylime]

I do not bid J2NT here to start with. I start with 2♦ instead.

There are reasons for this. Firstly my hand looks like a 3NT pass/correct situation and the only way to get into the right strain of contract is to start low. Secondly, I got nice trumps for pard and pard opened. It infers scattered honors from pard - if pard finds a strength showing bid then I can drive for slam via 5♥ (trump quality ask). Lastly, I don't want to miss potentially six ♦.'

For Echo's question I jump bid 4 ♣ - I have an EXCELLENT hand that I want pard's input on. This assumes 4♣ is 2nd suit and not void showing.

[FrancesHinden]

FrancesHinden, on Jan 31 2006, 05:26 PM, said:

I don't think I'd be blaming this board for losing the match.

Unless you played at the 5-level one off, that is.

[hrothgar]

FrancesHinden, on Jan 31 2006, 07:26 PM, said:

Carefully not answering the question, I observe that given the two hands you have presented, I'm not entirely sure what I'd like the final contract to be... so I don't think I'd be blaming this board for losing the match.

This hand resulted in a big swing, however, I wouldn't say that it "cost the match"...

I'm certainly not interested in assigning blame on the hand (The slam is pretty close to 50-50 so its hard to claim that there is any "blame")

The main reason that I posted this hand is that I felt it raised a few interesting questions regarding about BBO Advanced:

1. What should opener rebid after a Jacoby 2NT? Many of his replies seem problematic.
2. Assuming that partner does rebid 3♦, what does a jump to 4♥ show? Is this a picture jump or fast arrival or what?
3. Would anyone chose a 3♠ cue?

For what its worth, both tables started with a Jacoby 2NT type response, followed by 3♦. I chose to rebid 4♥ (hoping it was a picture jump) and there we sat. The Egyptian international at the other table chose to bid 3♠ and arrived at 6♥.

[tysen2k]

As opener I don't like showing the singleton A. I'll bid 3NT which for me is no shortness and a "medium" hand (16-17 HCP).

After a 3♦ rebid I agree with 4♥ showing minimum.

Tysen

[joshs]

hrothgar, on Jan 31 2006, 12:05 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Jan 31 2006, 07:26 PM, said:

Carefully not answering the question, I observe that given the two hands you have presented, I'm not entirely sure what I'd like the final contract to be... so I don't think I'd be blaming this board for losing the match.

This hand resulted in a big swing, however, I wouldn't say that it "cost the match"...

I'm certainly not interested in assigning blame on the hand (The slam is pretty close to 50-50 so its hard to claim that there is any "blame")

The main reason that I posted this hand is that I felt it raised a few interesting questions regarding about BBO Advanced:

1. What should opener rebid after a Jacoby 2NT? Many of his replies seem problematic.
2. Assuming that partner does rebid 3♦, what does a jump to 4♥ show? Is this a picture jump or fast arrival or what?
3. Would anyone chose a 3♠ cue?

For what its worth, both tables started with a Jacoby 2NT type response, followed by 3♦. I chose to rebid 4♥ (hoping it was a picture jump) and there we sat. The Egyptian international at the other table chose to bid 3♠ and arrived at 6♥.

Some comments:
In jacoby if you had a good hand and were interested in slam you would:
a. cue bid something
b. bid 3H waiting, to give partner a chance to cue-bid something

Even if you played serious 3N (which I think is inferior to non-serious 3N for many reasons), you should be playing "serious 3H" here. (Or non-serious 3H for the non-serious 3N players). 3N should be:
I have wastage, can't cue-bid spades, but my hand didn't totally go to hell after you showed diamond shortage.
4H should be: my hand totally went to hell.

I am sort of proposing that 3N show extra values, but wastage, and 4H show no extra values and wastage. (Personally, I never liked standard jacoby, but thats what we are often stuck with).


Now over 1H-2N-3S, you no longer have the trump bid as a waiting bid, so then 3N should be serious or non-serious or natural as you normally play it.

[inquiry]

hrothgar, on Jan 31 2006, 12:05 PM, said:

The main reason that I posted this hand is that I felt it raised a few interesting questions regarding about BBO Advanced:

1. What should opener rebid after a Jacoby 2NT? Many of his replies seem problematic.

Are we assuming this is the opening hand?
♠Txx
♥KJTxx
♦A
♣AKxx

If so, I am with Justin, I don't like 3♦ with singleton ACE. As those of you who have read my views on splinter, I don't make a splinter in a suit with a singleton ACE, and this 3♦ bid is a "splinter" . I actually play jacoby 2NT plus, where opener doesn't show his shortness but if I was playing jacoby here, I would bid a forcing 3♥ over 2NT.

Quote

2. Assuming that partner does rebid 3♦, what does a jump to 4♥ show?  Is this a picture jump or fast arrival or what?

This one is clear. 4♥ -- my hand is greatly devaluated by your stiff diamond. Proceed with caution.

Quote

3. Would anyone chose a 3♠ cue?

Not if 3♦ was diamond shortness...

[keylime]

I confess I am rather surprised that a picture jump approach isn't being advocated here.

[han]

I think 1♥-2NT is clearly the right start.

Over 2NT I would bid 3♥ or 3NT, and I think that 10xx KJ10xx A AKxx is an absolute maximum for 3NT. The auction would proceed:

1H-2NT
3NT-4D
5C-...

Now responder might stop in 5H or 6H, depending on mood.

[mike777]

4C or whatever my methods are that show a nonminimum 2 suited hand.

This is a 2 suited hand for me with an excellent second suit.

[whereagles]

This hand is a good example why playing Jacoby 2NT without further agreements is a painful and unenjoyable way to bad scores.

Actually, I think classical follow-ups to Jacoby 2NT are simply horrible. The only reason J2NT is still played in the classical fashion is the bid is so rare it hardly matters.

[keylime]

Han,

This time I have to dissent here. To me Jacoby 2NT is a bid that states that there is no other bid possibly to express my hand; furthermore J2NT for me should be much more closely defined as a mild slam try or better.

I have plenty of time with 1♥-2♦ to determine where we're going. Examples:

1) Opener's on a min.

1♥-2♦-2♥

Depending on what flavor of arrival you're using you bid hearts here to limit your hand, and life is swell. You haven't lost anything by not bidding J2NT first. You've allowed opener to describe further their hand.

2) Opener's shapely

1♥-2♦-3♣ or 1♥-2♦-2♠

To me these are non-minimums (for those of note -> which form of arrival is BBO Adv using, fast, slow, or picture style?) playing slow arrival. Now you're in business. However, with fast arrival, these can be wide-ranging (either picture style or non-min, depending on agreement). In either case, you can set trumps.

3) Opener's on a rock

1♥-2♦-2NT (slow arrival, 18-19)
1♥-2♦-3♠
1♥-2♦-3♥

Your hand upgrades here. Your trump honors look magical now knowing pard has "cards" in your fragments (spades and clubs). Now if Serious 3NT is agreed -> nice time to use it. Otherwise, cuebid or make a slam try as applicable.

With Jacoby 2NT however, opener loses A LOT of potential to describe their hand since we are in essence DEMANDING they answer our bid. What does opener do if they are on a minimum with a stiff? Do they HAVE to show the stiff telling the defense what NOT to lead? Additionally, you lose the ability to show responder's side suits as pluses/minuses to the overall idea of contract.

1♥-2♦ allows a lot better structured auction. You're already in a G/F; why rush? :-)

[Al_U_Card]

whereagles, on Jan 31 2006, 04:21 PM, said:

This hand is a good example why playing Jacoby 2NT without further agreements is a painful and unenjoyable way to bad scores.

Actually, I think classical follow-ups to Jacoby 2NT are simply horrible. The only reason J2NT is still played in the classical fashion is the bid is so rare it hardly matters.

What are the possibilities for responding to Jacoby 2NT? Ogust style rebids by opener? (You can adjust the responses to suit your FA or SA style) Or others?

[keylime]

I like the Swedish style rebids (3♣ being any min, 3♦ being balanced extras, etc.).

[hrothgar]

keylime, on Feb 1 2006, 12:42 AM, said:

Han,

This time I have to dissent here. To me Jacoby 2NT is a bid that states that there is no other bid possibly to express my hand; furthermore J2NT for me should be much more closely defined as a mild slam try or better.

I find this hand almost prototypical for Jacoby 2NT and consider 2♦ a dreadful distortion... I'm curious what you consider an acceptable 2NT bid given that this is in some way flawed.

For what its worth, I suspect that the 2NT would be considered pretty mainstream.

[keylime]

All I can say is, it explains the dreadful state of slam bidding in many bridge areas if we're going to like 2NT a lot better than a constructive, GF 2♦, especially with no detailed agreements. I rather elicit pard's opinion than be a one-sided partner.

[whereagles]

Al_U_Card, on Jan 31 2006, 09:48 PM, said:

whereagles, on Jan 31 2006, 04:21 PM, said:

This hand is a good example why playing Jacoby 2NT without further agreements is a painful and unenjoyable way to bad scores.

Actually, I think classical follow-ups to Jacoby 2NT are simply horrible. The only reason J2NT is still played in the classical fashion is the bid is so rare it hardly matters.

What are the possibilities for responding to Jacoby 2NT? Ogust style rebids by opener? (You can adjust the responses to suit your FA or SA style) Or others?

If you play J2NT as any game forcing 4-card support (except for the 11-14 splinter hand), then Martel-Stansby's scheme is, in my opinion, by far the best follow-up. here are the notes. The main advantage of their scheme is that it allows either opener or responder to relinquish/take control of the auction, so that both players know EXACTLY what their role in the bidding is, and what features they should be showing.

However, I believe a 2NT support bid should be more well-defined than "any 4-card non-splinterish GF raise". But that would take us to the realm of home-brew pet systems.