[haver]

Sp 8,6,4,3
H A,K,J,8,7,5,2
D -
Cl A,6

You deal, vuln. against not MP - the bidding goes:
1H - P - 1Sp - P

Your bid -

[Free]

4D, this hand has slam ambition all over it, just show your void and see if partner is strong enough in trumps...

[flytoox]

i think i will bid 4d, but very worrying about the trump quality. perhaps we can ask ben if there is any particular convention to handle this question, say asking bid.

[Codo]

Hi all,

4 Diamond

and no worry about the trump quality. If pd has
9752, xx,xxx,Kxxx game is on with trumps 3-2 and hearts 3-1 with the shortness with the trump length.
And Pd will be stronger...
Only risk: If he went on to slam with
KQxx, xx,QJxx,KQx or similar.
But even then slam may make.

[luis]

Easy.
5d Exclusion Blackwood.
Then you will know if you have to play 6s or 7s.

[haver]

Very strange - i have 5 reply and all are ready to lose the 7 card H suit (A, K, J in it) in game and/or slam to raise partner's spade maybe only 4 with 4 small spade support - how about the Heart game or slam?

[luis]

Quote

Very strange - i have 5 reply and all are ready to lose the 7 card H suit (A, K, J in it) in game and/or slam to raise partner's spade maybe only 4 with 4 small spade support - how about the Heart game or slam?

The hand is slamish when spades are trumps the heart suit might provide all the discards needed in a slam or grand slam no matter how many hearts pd has. I'd never think about playing this hand in hearts.

[flytoox]

Quote

Easy.
5d Exclusion Blackwood.
Then you will know if you have to play 6s or 7s.

luis, i dont think 5 level is safe, what if pd has sth like:
S: QTXX
H: XX
D: AQTXX
C: XX

this hand is pretty good for 1S responder.

[flytoox]

Quote

Very strange - i have 5 reply and all are ready to lose the 7 card H suit (A, K, J in it) in game and/or slam to raise partner's spade maybe only 4 with 4 small spade support - how about the Heart game or slam?

I must admit i hide the h suit, but hide the spade spt will be even more problematic. if you bid 3h, and pd raise to 4h, what do u do?

[Free]

I don't think about slam in H because, if partner has 4 small Spades, you'll still lose 3 or 4 Spade tricks. So it doesn't really matter in which suit you play, you'll still lose the same amount of S tricks. But (!) if you play H, then you can't discard a possible C loser. With the H suit as trick source, your partner can discard his Club losers and make slam. This is exactly why you also should play in a 4-4 fit if you have both 5-3 and 4-4 in the majors. Just to drop losers on the long suit.

[luis]

Quote

Quote

Easy.
5d Exclusion Blackwood.
Then you will know if you have to play 6s or 7s.

luis, i dont think 5 level is safe, what if pd has sth like:
S: QTXX
H: XX
D: AQTXX
C: XX

this hand is pretty good for 1S responder.

Then with 0 keycards we'll be playing 5s probably down 1 or maybe making if we have luck.
The chances to win a slam or even a grand slam are so good that the risk of going down 1 in 5s is worth the try.

[inquiry]

Quote

i think i will bid 4d, but very worrying about the trump quality. perhaps we can ask ben if there is any particular convention to handle this question, say asking bid.

There is a bid, not sure you want to use it here or not, but if you think like Luis, it is probably better than his exclusion blackwood, and "equally" safe (safe being a relative term).

The bid is a direct jump, not to 5D, which is exlusion blackwood, but to 5S (where luis is going anyway). This is a "TRUMP ASKING BID" on this auction, asking for good trumps. Now the meaning of "good" varies, but if opener was just interest in a keycard or two on an auction like this, normal blackwood or exclusion blackwood would be the answer. So "good" in this case would be something more than two of the top three... S-KQxxx is not good, S-AKxxx is not good. A sixth spade, to either of these become good (clearly partner has 4S for this jump, else he risk playing in 4-3 fit at five level with no good suit... since he is asking). AKJxx is probably good and AKJTx is clearly good.

Is this leap better than Luis's solution of exlusion blackwood? Hard to say. If partner has something like S-AQJTX and out, how is luis to get to slam? If he ask for keycards he hears one. But has no idea if spades are good enough to go on. After all, his partner's one key card might be S-Kxxx where you could lose 4S (and be doubled at that in slam if S-AQJT is behind the king).

I am torn on this hand. Luis's logic of the chance for slam or grand slam is sound. But any jump to 4D (fit) will get you to the slam anytime partner is holding good spades. He will bid 4H (LTTC) with good spades. Now, you can proceed normally. If on the other hand, after a leap to 4D and partner bids 4S, best stop. So while an immediate 5S ask the question you want asked, it may get you to high. I think after 4D, the auction isn't over, so I would probably bid that. Although if we are vul and they are not, I would be much more likely to bid 5S. The reason being it keeps them from dbling 4D and finding a good sacrafice, and keeps the slam in the picture.

Ben

[luis]

Quote

Quote

i think i will bid 4d, but very worrying about the trump quality. perhaps we can ask ben if there is any particular convention to handle this question, say asking bid.

There is a bid, not sure you want to use it here or not, but if you think like Luis, it is probably better than his exclusion blackwood, and "equally" safe (safe being a relative term).

The bid is a direct jump, not to 5D, which is exlusion blackwood, but to 5S (where luis is going anyway). This is a "TRUMP ASKING BID" on this auction, asking for good trumps. Now the meaning of "good" varies, but if opener was just interest in a keycard or two on an auction like this, normal blackwood or exclusion blackwood would be the answer. So "good" in this case would be something more than two of the top three... S-KQxxx is not good, S-AKxxx is not good. A sixth spade, to either of these become good (clearly partner has 4S for this jump, else he risk playing in 4-3 fit at five level with no good suit... since he is asking). AKJxx is probably good and AKJTx is clearly good.

Is this leap better than Luis's solution of exlusion blackwood? Hard to say. If partner has something like S-AQJTX and out, how is luis to get to slam? If he ask for keycards he hears one. But has no idea if spades are good enough to go on. After all, his partner's one key card might be S-Kxxx where you could lose 4S (and be doubled at that in slam if S-AQJT is behind the king).

I am torn on this hand. Luis's logic of the chance for slam or grand slam is sound. But any jump to 4D (fit) will get you to the slam anytime partner is holding good spades. He will bid 4H (LTTC) with good spades. Now, you can proceed normally. If on the other hand, after a leap to 4D and partner bids 4S, best stop. So while an immediate 5S ask the question you want asked, it may get you to high. I think after 4D, the auction isn't over, so I would probably bid that. Although if we are vul and they are not, I would be much more likely to bid 5S. The reason being it keeps them from dbling 4D and finding a good sacrafice, and keeps the slam in the picture.

Ben

Ben, don't you risk losing a grand slam with a 5s bid?
If I have
KQJxxx of spades over 5s I'd bid 6s (Good!)
If I have
AKQxx of spades over 5s I'd bid 6s (Not good!)
If I have
AKxxxx of spades over 5s I'd bid 6s (Not good!)
If I have
Axxxxx of spades I might pass 5s (Not good!)

Asking for "good" trumps to play 6 is doubtful -in my opinion- when you can win 7 with AK sixth or AKQ and you can win 6 even when pd has bad trumps as Axxxxx.

[lenze]

Perhaps this hand will play best in spades, but I would like to hear your explanation of why you were down in 6 Spades opposite

S-A975
H-QT
D-8 64
C-KQJ5

when you are cold for 6 Hearts

Hugh Kelsey said in his book on slam bidding,
"Don't bid bad suits on good hands"
Something to keep in mind!!

[luis]

Quote

Perhaps this hand will play best in spades, but I would like to hear your explanation of why you were down in 6 Spades opposite

S-A975
H-QT
D-8 64
C-KQJ5

when you are cold for 6 Hearts

Hugh Kelsey said in his book on slam bidding,
"Don't bid bad suits on good hands"
Something to keep in mind!!

Because it is the right thing to do.
This hand has nothing to do with Kelsey's advice.

The number of average tricks in spades after 1h-1s is: 11.10
The number of average tricks in hearts after 1h-1s is: 10.94

Slam in spades is on in 41% of the cases, grand slam is on 21%
In hearts you have 12 tricks 33% of the time and 13 on 12%

So the hand must be played in spades and slam chances are very very good.

The important thing is what happens on average not in just one particular hand. Do you want me to ask why you are playing 6h down 1 instead of 7s making ? I can post "n" hands where you have 13 tricks in spades and only 11 or 10 in hearts.

[inquiry]

Quote

Ben, don't you risk losing a grand slam with a 5s bid?
If I have
KQJxxx of spades over 5s I'd bid 6s (Good!)
If I have
AKQxx of spades over 5s I'd bid 6s (Not good!)
If I have
AKxxxx of spades over 5s I'd bid 6s (Not good!)
If I have
Axxxxx of spades I might pass 5s (Not good!)

Asking for "good" trumps to play 6 is doubtful -in my opinion- when you can win 7 with AK sixth or AKQ and you can win 6 even when pd has bad trumps as Axxxxx.

Well, I am not exactly sure I want to defend a jump directly to 5S on a hand where my actual preference is 4D. We can draw up hands where 5S is too high regardless if we bid 5D or 5S. Likewise, we can draw up a lot of hands where after you hear the response to 5D, you have no idea if you can make 5S, 6S, 7S. This includes hands you drew up. But since you called me out with four specific hands, let's take a look at them, but first, a reminder what the leap to 5S over 1S means. It means:

• I do have four trumps (after all you may have only 4
  
• I am worried about losing two tricks in trumps for slam
  
• Since we are bidding slam if you have something like KQJx or AKJT, I must have quite a good hand

With that in mind, let's look at your hands.
KQJxxx of spades over 5s I'd bid 6s (Good!) This is an easy 6S bid. I see no problem here, we will not be losing two trumps.

AKxxxx of spades over 5s I'd bid 6s (Not good!) Ok, think about this one for a minute. Partner has 4 trumps, I have six to the AK, that is 10. Partner was worried about losing 2 trumps for slam. If partner thinks he can make 5S missing AK of spades, and I have a sixth spade, seven is likely in the offing. Here I would not bid 6S, instead, I would make a try for grand slam, as this hand is the moral equivalent to AKQxx... The nature of the slam try will depend upon your agreement (bid 6 with a normal "good hand", try for grand slam with AK and either extra legnth or AKQ).

AKQxx of spades over 5s I'd bid 6s (Not good!) This hand is just like the last, no one would simply bid 6S with hand on the given auction. Partner invited 6 missing AKQ of trumps for goodness sake. On this one, bidding 7S is almost automatic. But if you don't just jump to seven, you would surely make a grandslam try.

Axxxxx of spades I might pass 5s (Not good!). See the points above. Partenr was concerned about losing two trump tricks. Partner has four spades. I have six to the Ace. Bidding the small slam here is clearly right. The question might be do you bid the small slam if your spades were Kxxxxx ? I think not, but with the ACE-sixth, yes.

Now, having hammered what to do after hearing a jump to 5S, let's change it around and bid 5D as you suggested. Further, let's assume the responses are 5H = 0 or 3, 5S = 1 or 4, 5NT = two without, and 6C = two with. You can do ok after a 5D or 5NT response (below), but you are in the dark after a 5S response. For example...

1H-1S
5D-5H... ok, here you bail in 5S, easy enough,hope it makes

1H-1S
5D-5N ... ok, you caught your partner with S-AK, but is it
AKxx, or AKxxx, or AKxxxx... I guess you can ask
for the spade Q, and if your partner has 6 he can
show the queen rather he has it or not.

1H-1S
5D-5S... you partner's spades could be Kxxx or Axxx or
AQxx, or AQxxx, or AQJT9xxx, or Axxxxxx, you
are stuck trying to guess what to do.

Somehow, I think the direct 5S bid has it all over the exclusion blackwood auction here.

ben

[luis]

Quote

Quote

Ben, don't you risk losing a grand slam with a 5s bid?
If I have
KQJxxx of spades over 5s I'd bid 6s (Good!)
If I have
AKQxx of spades over 5s I'd bid 6s (Not good!)
If I have
AKxxxx of spades over 5s I'd bid 6s (Not good!)
If I have
Axxxxx of spades I might pass 5s (Not good!)

Asking for "good" trumps to play 6 is doubtful -in my opinion- when you can win 7 with AK sixth or AKQ and you can win 6 even when pd has bad trumps as Axxxxx.

Well, I am not exactly sure I want to defend a jump directly to 5S on a hand where my actual preference is 4D. We can draw up hands where 5S is too high regardless if we bid 5D or 5S. Likewise, we can draw up a lot of hands where after you hear the response to 5D, you have no idea if you can make 5S, 6S, 7S. This includes hands you drew up. But since you called me out with four specific hands, let's take a look at them, but first, a reminder what the leap to 5S over 1S means. It means:

• I do have four trumps (after all you may have only 4
  
• I am worried about losing two tricks in trumps for slam
  
• Since we are bidding slam if you have something like KQJx or AKJT, I must have quite a good hand

With that in mind, let's look at your hands.
KQJxxx of spades over 5s I'd bid 6s (Good!) This is an easy 6S bid. I see no problem here, we will not be losing two trumps.

AKxxxx of spades over 5s I'd bid 6s (Not good!) Ok, think about this one for a minute. Partner has 4 trumps, I have six to the AK, that is 10. Partner was worried about losing 2 trumps for slam. If partner thinks he can make 5S missing AK of spades, and I have a sixth spade, seven is likely in the offing. Here I would not bid 6S, instead, I would make a try for grand slam, as this hand is the moral equivalent to AKQxx... The nature of the slam try will depend upon your agreement (bid 6 with a normal "good hand", try for grand slam with AK and either extra legnth or AKQ).

AKQxx of spades over 5s I'd bid 6s (Not good!) This hand is just like the last, no one would simply bid 6S with hand on the given auction. Partner invited 6 missing AKQ of trumps for goodness sake. On this one, bidding 7S is almost automatic. But if you don't just jump to seven, you would surely make a grandslam try.

Axxxxx of spades I might pass 5s (Not good!). See the points above. Partenr was concerned about losing two trump tricks. Partner has four spades. I have six to the Ace. Bidding the small slam here is clearly right. The question might be do you bid the small slam if your spades were Kxxxxx ? I think not, but with the ACE-sixth, yes.

Now, having hammered what to do after hearing a jump to 5S, let's change it around and bid 5D as you suggested. Further, let's assume the responses are 5H = 0 or 3, 5S = 1 or 4, 5NT = two without, and 6C = two with. You can do ok after a 5D or 5NT response (below), but you are in the dark after a 5S response. For example...

1H-1S
5D-5H... ok, here you bail in 5S, easy enough,hope it makes

1H-1S
5D-5N ... ok, you caught your partner with S-AK, but is it
AKxx, or AKxxx, or AKxxxx... I guess you can ask
for the spade Q, and if your partner has 6 he can
show the queen rather he has it or not.

1H-1S
5D-5S... you partner's spades could be Kxxx or Axxx or
AQxx, or AQxxx, or AQJT9xxx, or Axxxxxx, you
are stuck trying to guess what to do.

Somehow, I think the direct 5S bid has it all over the exclusion blackwood auction here.

ben

If your pd will make a non-6s bid when he knows there's no trump loser in spades then 5s is surely a better bid than 5d.
I respectfully agree on that.

About what to do if you use exclusion blackwood and pd announces 1 key card I think I'll just bid 6s and hope for the best, I'm sure it will be a good gamble. Note that if he shows two keycards he can't have the queen so no need to ask for the sQ for 7. With 6 cards he will surely bid 2+Q with AKxxxx.

[inquiry]

Quote

I would like to hear your explanation of why you were down in 6 Spades opposite [this hand] when you are cold for 6 Hearts

S-A975
H-QT
D-8 64
C-KQJ5

The real reason you aim this hand towards spades has to do with distorting the bidding. After 1S response, you clearly want to be in game at least, so you need a forcing bid. What to bid? No number of hearts will fit the bill, as none of them are forcing. A jump to 3C (assuming it is forcing), is forcing and you might hear a false preference back to hearts to allow you to give delayed support for spades, but this is too artificial. I see no reasonable way to describe your hand or seek useful info from partner after a 3C jump on a doubleton. The only forcing response that makes any sense all show spade support: 4D, 5D, and 5S.

After a jump to 4D, it is at least theoretically possible to get back into hearts opposite the hand you propose. North with nothing wasted in diamonds, will certainly want to make a slam try, but his spades are so yucky, he might bid 4H (general slam try, not showing hearts...sometimes called loney cue-bid). As South, I have shown my hand with 4D, so I would bid 4S, which very well might end the auction. But an agreesive norht with very good clubs, the top spade, and the fitting heart queen, and nothing wasted in spades, might very well make one more attempt with with 5C (cue-bid). South would show the Diamond void with 5D and north will bid 5H. I don't know about you, but this bid could be the queen/king/or Ace in partners suit. South spades are very yucky, and north didn't use blackwood for a reason, so as south, I would bid 6H. With four yucky spades, and knowing south has 4S, long hearts, diamond void, the pass here by north seems clear at this point. After all, north never really promised heart support. Do I think the auction would go that way? No. But this is another reason for using the flexible 4D instead of the inflexible 5S or 5D.

Ben

[lenze]

Hi Ben: I definitely agree this is a difficult hand, and I too, would bid 4 Diamonds. 5 Diamonds and 5 Spades are too unilateral. As you do point out, 4 Diamonds does NOT preclude the chance to find the Heart slam when it is best. Your option of 3 Clubs does have some merit, however, especially if you are playing with a partner you can trust and who trusts you.

[luke warm]

my bid is 4D... pard knows the rule of 26