[marmot101]

What's a good bidding sequence for this slam?

South: SAKJ10xxx HK DKQx Cxx
North: SQx Hxxx DAxx CAKJ10x

South West North East
1S      -        2C      -
3S      -        ?

what should North do here? if 4S, South may pass. If not show spade support, do what?

He has SQ, DA, CAK these 4 key cards, is there any good way to show it?

[Codo]

Hi marmot,

I would bid 4 Club, showing good clubs and obvious slam interesst. Pd should bid 4 Diamond, control showing and North 4 Spade.
If pd will understand, that 4 club now was an advanced cue bid (a cuebid before fixing the suit), he will go on with good trumps and the red suits fixed. After RCKB, you have an easy way to 6 Spade...

But I admid, that this is not easy at all, I got to know, that advanced cuebids are not so cristal clear, so sometimes you reach silly contracts.

Kind Regards

Roland

[ejfree]

Cue 4D also can work. Good temporizing bid and partner will figure it out hopefiully.

[Rado]

Hi Marmot,
Your question hits one very interesting area in bidding.
Experts are divided between 2 main principle for unclear bid on level 4th (as per your example):
1. bid is always que agreeing the last suit (or logical suit)
2. bid is always natural if it can be natural.

My opinion is someway in the middle: at the presented sequence 4Cl must be both way= slam try with own CL suit and not Sp fit or Cue agreeing Sp.
But at this particular hand I think 4D is the correct bid since it must agree Sp and is waiting for He cue
(the other option is 4D to show a monster 6Cl5Di 2-suiter which is very rare hand).
So if we accepted 4D to agree Sp, then 4C on another hand would be own suit, or Cue agreeing SP but denying D cue (since we have 4D available).

For practical reasons the jump to 3Sp must set the trump suit for 99 pct of the cases

best regards, Rado

[Codo]

Hi Rado,

"if" 4 Club is a cuebid, then 4 Diamond must deny a Club control, a hand like: Qx, AQx, Axx,QJTxx f.e.
So if I identify 4 Diamond as a cuebid, I would bid just 4 Spades with the given hand, because I KNOW; that they have 2 Club tricks at once.
(Of course this is just true, while playing mixed cuebids, else, a slam is still possible).

And 4 Club should be a cuebid, because there is NO sense in playing it natural.

Kind Regards

Roland

[Cave_Draco]

<"if" 4 Club is a cuebid, then 4 Diamond must deny a Club control> is a consequence of playing cue-bids up-the-line.

I prefer to play that a cue-bid denies the higher suit not the lower. So, 4D-4S-5C shows both minor suit aces and denies the Heart ace. 4C would deny the Diamond ace but not the Heart ace.

Cue-bids are easy with one ace, two aces need room to breathe,  ;D.

[marmot101]

Thanks for all your help! They are very good advice.

Best,

marmot101

[pkl]

It seems just plain silly to me, that only first-round controls can be cue-bid. I much prefer italian style cue-bids where you can cuebid second round controls as well. In this case, the slam is simple to bid:

1S - 2C, 3S - 4D (cue), 4H .. check aces however you do that.

Kind regards
Peter

[Cave_Draco]

Hi Peter,

You can start a cue-bidding sequence with a 2nd round control but the response is expected to be a 1st round control.

With a void the H cue-bid is appropriate, with a singleton it is misleading.

Cue-bidding & BW are not mutually exclusive BUT... the aim of BW is to avoid slams (according to Blackwood himself), the aim of cue-bidding is to find slams!

Suppose I cued a H void & P asks for Aces? Jump to show a void? Horrid!

Second round controls can be shown on the second round, 1S-2C-3S-4D-4S-5C-5H shows either a singleton H or the HK, still room to sign off in 5S, (Or 1S-2C-3S-4C-4S-5D-5H depending upon style),  ;D.

[hrothgar]

>You can start a cue-bidding sequence with a 2nd round >control but the response is expected to be a 1st round >control.

Completely dependant on system

>Cue-bidding & BW are not mutually exclusive

Compeltely dependant on system.  For example:

Playing Blue Team Club, Blackwood is not available if the partnership initates a cue bidding sequence.  The specific meaning of 4NT varies based on context, but I can't think of any examples where 4NT is used as Blackwood [RKC or otherwise]

[Cave_Draco]

Agreed, hrothgar, mixing cue-bids & BW is like changing horses in mid-stream but many systems allow it!

As to initiating a cue-bidding sequence with a 2nd round control... sometimes it depends upon the answer you are looking for!

"The truth points to itself",  

[Codo]

Hi Drago,

no, it is absolute normal to mix cuebids and RCKB. It is just the easiest way to check slams with cuebidding mixed cuebids. But maybe you agree anyway, after all, changing the horses is the quickest way to ride a long trail.

Kind Regards

Roland

[inquiry]

Quote

Hi Drago,

no, it is absolute normal to mix cuebids and RCKB. It is just the easiest way to check slams with cuebidding mixed cuebids. But maybe you agree anyway, after all, changing the horses is the quickest way to ride a long trail.

Kind Regards

Roland

"changing the horses is the quickest way to ride a long trail. "

ROFL. I really like that quote Roland! Go pony express....

If you play an advanced version of RKCB, such as Eddie Kantar's version with its 30 chapters and secondary asking/showing conventional bids, specific cue-bidding through rounds and rounds of cue-bidding is not required to reach the vast magic fit grand slams.  Thus, the use of cue-bidding up-the-line to confirm that suit is not "wide-open" (that is off two quick tricks) is a sound cue-bidding approach before blackwood. In this model of cue-bidding (certainly not the only model), partnerships bid their cheapest controls up the line, until one or the other partner is assured all side suits are controlled, then blackwood could be employed (or you can continue cue-bidding).  

[Cave_Draco]

There is a philosophical difference between BW & RKCB; RCKB asks a different question!

BW asks "How many Aces, P?" In the middle of a cue-sequence it is not the "Pony Express" solution, .

RCKB asks about key cards; it could mean "I am suitably encouraged by the cue-sequence, P, tell me key cards?"

RKCB can be compatible with cue-bidding, BW isn't... I can cue a void, I hate the BW jump!

Hope this clears up any misunderstanding, :'(.

P.S. It is easier to apply the "brakes" in BW, RCKB makes 6 or 7 easier, ;D.