[inquiry]

JJSB and I have posted a number of hands involving play problems called "good idea". Most of these have now moved to the second page of topics under the Beginner and intermediate bridge discussion (click the little "2" at the bottom of the page to see page two of beginner topics).  I thought maybe bidding problems where even good players (better than I) go wrong might be another type of post that would be useful. Therefore I post a first example of this in the hopes others will come forward with similiar hands for discussion in the beginner/intermediate forum.

I was kibitizing the following hand being played by two very good players who missed slam on the following combination of hands.

63
Q93
AKQ62
975

A
AKT842
985
A86

The bidding, opened by South
1H (P) 2D (P)
3C (X) 3H (P)
3S  (P) 4D (P)
4H all pass

Diamonds (and hearts) are breaking so this is a 13 trick hand (that is, this hand makes either 5 or 7 on the now expected club opening lead).. It is my believe, and so for this discussion will be the case, that they were playing 2/1 game force. Things to think about, the creative 3C bid, the 3H bid, the 4H bid, and the willingness to pass 4Hs.

Questions.
1) Should North bid 4H over 3C - X as either principle of fast arrival or as a picture bid, and do you understand what these terms mean?

2) South North bid 3NT over 3S as Serious 3NT despite his limited 11 hcps and do you know what serious 3NT is?

3) Can (that is should) North bid again over 4H without a club stopper when South retreats to 4H over 4D?

4) Finally after 2D, 3H and 4D by his partner, should South bid 4H over 4D, why or why not?

If principle of fast arrival, picture bids, or serious 3NT are terms new to you. You might want to check out Fred Gitelman's excellent article entitled Improving 2/1 GF, Part 1. To find this article on line, go the BBO gaming site, click on the "bridge library", and scroll down to near the bottom (after all the Deal of the weeks) to find it.

[Yzerman]

I dont like this auction, I actually defended against this hand and the opps got to 7 (he,he).  I disagree with the 2/1 in the diamond suit, for many reasons (can get into that at another time).  Depending on who my partner is, I perhaps would try 2D, but in all my established partnerships I would bid 1NT.

First, I personally would NOT choose 2D 2/1 with the responders hand, I would opt for either 3D (fit jump) if available or 1N followed by an impossible 2S rebid.  Here is an auction I can envision;

1H-1N
2C*-2S**
3H***-4D (heart raise with D cue)
4N-5C (1430)
5D-6D
6H

* 1N by reponsder promise rebid 99% of time hence 2C is safe (will carry later inference)
** Impossible 2S
*** 6th heart, since 2C rebid then 3H imply GOOD hand (bad hands should rebid 2H)

[the hog]

IF they were playing 2/1 and IF you decided to bid 2D on this hand, THEN I think you should follow up with 4H as a picture bid. Now the slam should be reached.

However I agree with Yzerman that I would start off with 1NT. Even when I played 2/1 we opened fairly light, so I would not want to categroically force to game unless I had a 4th trump. I like the auction Yzerman proposes to get to 6.

[inquiry]

Maybe discussing this hand is not as easy for beginners as I thought. The only replies so far are from two experts. It is intersting to see that they took exception to 2 Diamonds if NS was playing 2-over-1 forcing. Both choose to bid 1NT (forcing). This is an interesting point, and why I said "It is my believe, and so for this discussion will be the case, that they were playing 2/1 game force. ". The reason I said it this way was that if playing 2/1 GF, this is a minimum or subminimum 2D bid depending upon your requirements for an openign 1H bid.

Since they raised the issue, let me share my thoughts. At matchponts I would bid 1NT with North hand regardless of vulnerability. At IMP;s however, not vul I bid 1NT but Vul I bid 2D over 1H. The reason is at vul at imps, I will not risk missing game (35% chance or so good enough to try for game when vul). Since I am going to force to game vul, I choose to bid 2D then make a picture bid (4H) next.

Since the three of us favor (in general) a 1NT response, your first question might be, is how many of the 16 players with north's hand responded 1NT instead of 2D to 1H?  First, one South opened 4H instead of 1H, of the other 15 hands, 13 responded 2D, 1 responded 3H, and 1 responded immediate 4H. Many of these players probably are not using 2/1 game force, so for them 1NT is not a possibility.

So Yzerman/The_Hog has added yet another topic for this what went wrong. But, and this is important, 2D followed by support is stronger than 1NT then impossible 2!S rebid... that is it should have been easier to bid the slam (or grand slam).

So I think the first error was North's failure to use the picture 4H bid when he had the chance. But there was other mistakes as well (perhpas 3H was the biggest one, however). This hand is a great example of why picture bids, rather than Principle of Fast arrival is my choice way of bidding on this type of auction. Any other things go wrong here?

Ben

[Codo]

Hi Ben et al,

sorry, I cannot understand your bidding at all.
Responders hand is a clear game forcing opps. a 1 Heart opening. You have a fit, few side suit loosers and a suit to produce tricks. What do you need more?
So I would bid:
1 Heart             2 Diamond
3 Diamond (1)   3 Heart    (2)      
3 Spade    (3)    4 Diamond (4)
4 NT          (5)    5 Diamond (6)
5 NT          (7)    6 Diamond  (8)
6 Heart      
(1) why not raise pd, after all, we have a diamond fit
(2) this should show a good hand with double fit
(3) cuebid
(4) cuebid but denies much extras, else serious 3 NT
(5) RCKB (6) 1 KC
(6) I have queen of H, do you have a king?
(7) No club but Diamond king
(8) All aces,  12 tricks if diamonds are 3-2 and a non club lead or diamonds 4-1 or better but pd has the Diamond queen.
Easy going  

I would miss the grand cause I could not find out about the queen of Diamonds in this system.

Besides: In my understanding, if you play 2/1 you are not allow to open any 12 HCPs (or you play 1 NT till 13).
But even with a system with light openings I would treat this hand as a gf.

For your questions:

1) Should North bid 4H over 3C - X as either principle of fast arrival or as a picture bid, and do you understand what these terms mean?


In my opinion the principle of fast arrival is a great tool. But the hand has too much strength for that, so an simple 3 Heart is great.

2) South North bid 3NT over 3S as Serious 3NT despite his limited 11 hcps and do you know what serious 3NT is?

No he does not have extra values for his already showed GF

3) Can (that is should) North bid again over 4H without a club stopper when South retreats to 4H over 4D?

Of course not, his pd just denied a club stopper too.

4) Finally after 2D, 3H and 4D by his partner, should South bid 4H over 4D, why or why not?

He thougth, that pd could not have enough if he is unable to bid serious 3 NT. But he forgot two things: Pd has a gf hand without club control and he did not use the fast arrival and he cuebid his own suit.
So, I need from pd: AKQxx in diamonds and not much more.
If he has less, I will fail after a club lead.
So 4 Heart was okay, as it says: Never play partner for perfect cards.
But still: I think declarer was too shy. It often pays to bid on with double fits.

Kind Regards

Roland

[Laird]

Hello All

Not being a 2/1 player I was rather overwhelmed by the speed of response and expert explanations regarding this problem.
I tried to come up with a simple minded Acol answer to the problem to see if it gives any other insight for comparison...

s 63
h Q93
d AKQ62
c 975

s A
h AKT842
d 985
c A86

Possible Acol Bidding ( I'm no expert )

1h  p 2d  p    .... 2d response i expect ( 10 -15 and 5cards)
2h  ? 3h  p       ... 2h shows 5/6 cards, 3h strong support 4h would be limiting
4nt p 5d  p         I'm gettting interested wondering about  
                        outanding ace etc

1 or 4 aces..... probably near 15 point end of raise, likely Q
                      likely 9 card trump and 8 card diamond fit
Concerned about outstanding 14 hcp in opps hand but shape and fit suggest 6h is on - can dump club losers on long diamonds.
4nt(rkc 0314)
6h
Ok tear it appart..... flawed logic, poor assessment of risk, poor understanding of Acol system..... just a guess, no scientific basis, gives too much info to the opponents, 2/1 gives much better understanding......... Please don't be too unkind this is a learning experience and other Acol players may read it and refuse to play with me.

John

[the hog]

John, the way I have played Acol:
1H  2D
2H  3H  would not be forcing, but inv.

One interesting point is that after 1H 2D, the opening hand is really quite a powerhouse. 6 card good H suit, 3 card D support, stiff AS and a C control. If my pd bid 2D in an Acol based system, I would bid 3S mini splinter.

To Roland - if you believe this is a GF, then you must open very sound hands. To those of us who want to get into the auction quickly on marginal hands, this responding hand is NOT a GF. (Close, yes of course, but not a GF).

[easy]

Ben said

"I was kibitizing the following hand being played by two very good players who missed slam on the following combination of hands.

63
Q93
AKQ62
975

A
AKT842
985
A86

The bidding, opened by South
1H (P) 2D (P)
3C (X) 3H (P)
3S  (P) 4D (P)
4H all pass "

1. Given that the north hand is a 7 loser hand I would respond 2/1 in both imp and mp scoring. I like to upgrade my hand for fits with pard and good suits. Now if pard would open kxx   Jxxxx  xx  Akx 1 heart i will change my vote to 1nt but if pard never opens 1 of a major with a 5 card suit that looks like a 4 card suit i 'll stick with 2 d response.

2. 3c rebid was creative. i guess opener was planning on showing a 1 5 3 4 good hand. Not a bad approach but i would prefer emphasizing my good 6 card suit by rebidding 2H. 3h not available as would be a picture bid showing solid /semisolid hearts and outside controls. Also my guess is opener played that bidding a new suit at 3 level showed extras (my prefered style)

3. 3h by responder gets my approval. I dont think their hand qualifies as a picture bid. 4 hearts by resp. would have shown good diamonds and good hearts and no outside controls. I dont think that Qxx qualifies as good hearts. For me good hearts must consist of 2 high honors or axxx or kxxx.
Fast arrival..... one of the most abused bidding principles in bridge. I've always wondered why we start out showing an opening hand and then begin preempting partner. Like sex ......slow is usually the best approach.
4. I dont play serious 3nt but i do know that if i had a method to cuebid and show a minimum i would use it with the north hand.
5. If north bids again over 4h he is flirting with disaster. After having bid 2/1 , raised pard and q bid i think he has told his story..... on the other hand
6. South took a big underbid signing off in 4h. Even given that 3c showed extras,  south still had plenty in reserve.
a) an extra trump
lots of controls, stiff as, akh,, ac
c) an undisclosed secondary fit in diamonds

Frankly after north chose to bid 2d GF i find it hard to believe that a good pair could stay out of 6. (i know the x of the creative 3c bid scared south but...........


my auction would have proceeded

1H                         2D
2H                         3H
3S                         4D
4NT                       5C  (1 or 4)
5D(queen ask)      6D  (yes i have Queen of S & k of D)
6H     (wish i had raised diamonds but didnt so i guess ill have to settle for 6h)

[easy]

Quote

I dont like this auction, I actually defended against this hand and the opps got to 7 (he,he).  I disagree with the 2/1 in the diamond suit, for many reasons (can get into that at another time).  Depending on who my partner is, I perhaps would try 2D, but in all my established partnerships I would bid 1NT.

First, I personally would NOT choose 2D 2/1 with the responders hand, I would opt for either 3D (fit jump) if available or 1N followed by an impossible 2S rebid.  Here is an auction I can envision;

1H-1N
2C*-2S**
3H***-4D (heart raise with D cue)
4N-5C (1430)
5D-6D
6H

* 1N by reponsder promise rebid 99% of time hence 2C is safe (will carry later inference)
** Impossible 2S
*** 6th heart, since 2C rebid then 3H imply GOOD hand (bad hands should rebid 2H)

Boy were u unlucky to play oppts that reached the Grand!!

Yes if fit jumps were available that would certainly be my bid of choice however  im missing something here....isnt 2S a good club raise? Had pard bid 3c over 2s were u planning on bidding 4H? The key to this slam are your great diamonds and yet pard has no clue about that suit. Was the purpose of your 2s bid to have pard think that your clubs looked like your diamonds thus after the diamond q pard was to think u held something like

xxx  xx  Axx  KQJxx    

 

[Yzerman]

I dont play impossible 2S in those as limited to good raises of the minor, to keep them more flexible than just "minor" raises.  What 2S does promise is a known 8+ card fit which will be claried upon next bid.  It could be a 3 card limit raise in the heart suit that grew up upon the minor suit rebid by opener.

[Rain]

Quote

63
Q93
AKQ62
975

A
AKT842
985
A86

The bidding, opened by South
1H (P) 2D (P)
3C (X) 3H (P)
3S  (P) 4D (P)
4H all pass

Diamonds (and hearts) are breaking so this is a 13 trick hand (that is, this hand makes either 5 or 7 on the now expected club opening lead).. It is my believe, and so for this discussion will be the case, that they were playing 2/1 game force. Things to think about, the creative 3C bid, the 3H bid, the 4H bid, and the willingness to pass 4Hs.

Questions.
1) Should North bid 4H over 3C - X as either principle of fast arrival or as a picture bid, and do you understand what these terms mean?

2) South North bid 3NT over 3S as Serious 3NT despite his limited 11 hcps and do you know what serious 3NT is?

3) Can (that is should) North bid again over 4H without a club stopper when South retreats to 4H over 4D?

4) Finally after 2D, 3H and 4D by his partner, should South bid 4H over 4D, why or why not?

If principle of fast arrival, picture bids, or serious 3NT are terms new to you. You might want to check out Fred Gitelman's excellent article entitled Improving 2/1 GF, Part 1. To find this article on line, go the BBO gaming site, click on the "bridge library", and scroll down to near the bottom (after all the Deal of the weeks) to find it.

I know sayc only...

I think if its me, the auction would be

1H (P) 2D (P)
3C (X) 3H (P)
3S  (P) 4D (P)
4nt (p) 5D (p)
5S (p)  6H

yes?

Used rkc to find out if p has AD, glad she does, happy to slam!

Rain

[Codo]

Hi Hog,

you wrote:
" if you believe this is a GF, then you must open very sound hands. To those of us who want to get into the auction quickly on marginal hands, this responding hand is NOT a GF. (Close, yes of course, but not a GF). "

In my opinion, you cannot be quick with 11 or 12 HCP hands in the auction AND play 2/1.
Just simple math: If you need 25 HCPs for 3 NT, you must rebid 1 NT with up to 13 HCPs, or always reach poor games.
This makes it a little too simple, but  even if you want to be in any 24 HCP 3 NT or 4 of a major, you must play the 1 NT answer with up to 12 HCPs. I don´t  know any pair who will do so. Do you?
So, you cannot have both: Play a straigth 2/1 game forcing and open light. In my opinion this does not fit  together.
Light openings works extremly well in relay systems, most strong club systems and even okay in sayc. But with 2/1 it must  be wrong.

Kind Regards

Roland

[the hog]

"Light openings works extremly well in relay systems, most strong club systems and even okay in sayc. But with 2/1 it must  be wrong."

Not in my experience, if you take a little care to ensure that the 2/1 bids are up to scratch, Roland. Hence my comment about the given hand. However I do take your point that in pick up partnerships in particular, you need to be careful to have full values to open

[inquiry]

The responses to this post have been very informative. The largest discussion has swirled around the question of IF this hand is worth a 2/1 game forcing response or not. This depends upon your partnership style of opening 1H. My partners have begun opening on such junk that inviting game with this hand rather than forcing to game is a good idea.  Obviously a few others agree, a few disagree. I submit  however, playing at imps vulnerable, you will not want to only force to game with this hand.  So there are three schools of thought perhaps... always bid 1NT, always bid 2D, and bid one or the other based upon style of partner or vulnerability. Something for people to consider which seems right to them.

Few have addressed all four questions. Thanks to Roland in particular for doing so.  I think the discussion of the issues raised may be useful for people wondering what the problems might be that caused me raising them.

The first question dealt with would a jump to 4H over 3Cx show. There are a number of options. 1) Extra strength, 2) minimum hand for 2D bid (Principle of Fast Arrival), or 3) Picture bid (no control in the any side suit (no spade or club control).  The feeling is that both The_Hog and Yzerman would play 4H as a picture bid if they had bid 2D, but they choose not to bid it. Roland commented that principle of fast arrival (PFA) is a great tool, but that this hand has too much strength to use it. Roland shows a very good hand evaluation to realize that this 11 point hand is TOO GOOD to show a minimum 2D bid on. Of course bidding 2D with this really is a minimum, but his expression that the hand is too strong shows evaluation that slam might be very likely despite his low hcp count. I fall into the group of players like to play prefer picture bids, and thus I have given up on PFA on this type of auction.  But I appreciate that picture bids are not everyone's favorite. I think the auction will be easier after the picture bid, but it should not have been hard anyway.

The next question was is the should north bid 3NT, serious 3NT showing slam interest. If you play PFA, the fact that you bid only 3H already shows slam interest of sorts. That is extra value. So this means, would 3NT show really serious (sort of Very Serious 3NT). Rolands response to this question (since he plays PFA) might be most interesting. He  said that while the hand was too good for PFA, it was not good enough for Serious 3NT. This raises the question of what kind of hands fit into the too good for PFA but not good enough for serious 3NT? When I played PFA I too would not have jumped to 4H for the same reason as Roland, but I would have bid 3NT over 3S to give my partner an easy chance to cue-bid 4C. But ok, 4D is alright, especially if you a) don't play serious 3NT, or if your partner will understand the significance of a hand that is too good for PFA but not good enough for serious 3NT.

It is my belief that South, with a club control, can not bid 4H over 4D, and with one, has to bid 4H. The reason being that north with no club stopper has no choice but to pass. That is, South will be issuing an inquiry (hehehe) to North  about his club holding. So if 3H is right, and 4D is right, then 4H can not be right. There might be an argument that 3C MUST have a club A or K, but I am not sure that is true.

Here is a reasonable auction using 1) picture bids, and 2) Kantar RKCB. (I left in the 3C bid because it was likely that perhaps north was going to support diamonds next to show singleton spade).

1H-P-2D-P
3C-X-3H-P
3S-P-4D-P
4N-P-5C-P
5D-P-6D-P
6H-P-P-P

Of course, if south had raised Diamonds, the grand slam would have been reached using Kantar RKCB (http://www.kantarbridge.com/rkb.htm). The bidding would have been

1H-2D
3D-3H            (double trump agreement)
4N-6C               6C=2 keycards out of 6 (4A, red K) + both red Q
7H-Pass           7H = you got to be kidding me.

Using kantar with double suit agreement, the responses are
5C = 1 or 4 of the six possible key cards
5D = 0 or 3 of the six (if weak hand ask these steps reversed)
5H = 2 with neither queen
5S = 2 with lower Q (here Diamond Q)
5N = 2 with higher Q (here Heart Q)
6C = 2 with both Queens  (here H & DQ)

So opener knows 1) North has DAK (two keys out of 6), 2) both red suit queens, and 3) 5 Diamonds for the 2D response. HE can count 6H, 1S, 1C and 5D for 13 tricks. Sure if Diamonds are 4-1, 7 will no make, but against that, partner might have another king, or even 6D.