[pbleighton]

Playing online with a new partner, the bidding went:

1H-P(me)-3H-Dbl-4H

I had 10 hcp, with the AJ10xx in diamonds and 2 small hearts, and felt I had to bid.  I bid 5D reluctantly, and we went down . My partner had 12 hcp, including KJxxx in spades, and 3 in the other unbid suits, and 2 in H.

1) Should I have bid or passed?
2) I think partner should have had 16+ hcp to double at the 3 level.  Agree?

[EricK]

If you feel you should make a bid, then it seems right to double.  This double just shows some strength. Your partner will know you don't have a lot of hearts because the opponents have shown at least 9.  If you think you have a chance at a five level contract despite a reasonably balanced hand, then it is unlikely that the opponents can come close to making 4H (this follows from the law of total tricks).

Was the 3H a pre-emptive raise? If you have 10 points, partner has 12 and opener has an opening bid (plus presumably extras to bid game), that does not leave much for opener's partner.

If it was pre-emptive (or semi pre-emptive) then fourth hand will have to compete on many hands with short hearts simply to avoid being robbed.  If 3H was invitational then it is very unlikely that fourth hand will have 16+ points, so I would expect the double to be a bit weaker than that, but very pure in terms of shape.

Eric

[the hog]

Peter it is helpful if you post the full hands; there are 10 point hands and there are 10 point hands....

From the little we know of your pd's hand it does look as if a pass would have been better. You do NOT need 16hcp to x at the three level, just good shape. I would certainly x 3H with the following:
Kxxx
x
Axxx
Axxx

[inquiry]

Quote

Peter it is helpful if you post the full hands; there are 10 point hands and there are 10 point hands....

From the little we know of your pd's hand it does look as if a pass would have been better. You do NOT need 16hcp to x at the three level, just good shape.

Peter, The_hog is right on with his comments. If you wait until your get 16hcp to be doubling 3H on the auction 1H-p-3H your opponents will be slaying you on way too many hands. Especially today with 1H-3H not being a hcp-based limit raise, but some kind of preemptive bid with four trumps.

You didn't say what your hand was but we suspect not 4S so something like this:

Qxx xx AJTxx Kxx  (to come up with your 10 HCP). It is reasonable to assume your partner has something like 4-1-4-4 for this double (may not of course). So you have 9 card fit, they have 10 card fit. The law of total tricks would suggest that if you can make 11 tricks, they can make only 8 tricks. So if you are making 5D they might well be down 2 in 4Hx. And if you are down one in 5D they are down one in 4H.  You didn't give the vul, and they might not have a 10 card fit, or you might not have 9 card fit. So all in all, I would double 4H.

Your double is not a demand that your partner pass. He still has another bid.

[pbleighton]

"Qxx xx AJTxx Kxx  (to come up with your 10 HCP). It is reasonable to assume your partner has something like 4-1-4-4 for this double (may not of course). So you have 9 card fit, they have 10 card fit. The law of total tricks would suggest that if you can make 11 tricks, they can make only 8 tricks. So if you are making 5D they might well be down 2 in 4Hx. And if you are down one in 5D they are down one in 4H.  You didn't give the vul, and they might not have a 10 card fit, or you might not have 9 card fit. So all in all, I would double 4H.  

Your double is not a demand that your partner pass. He still has another bid. "

Never would have thought of doubling with two small hearts - but of course that's why I post these questions.

Your guess as to my hand is accurate.  As to my partner's hand, I said

"I had 10 hcp, with the AJ10xx in diamonds and 2 small hearts, and felt I had to bid.  I bid 5D reluctantly, and we went down . My partner had 12 hcp, including KJxxx in spades, and 3 in the other unbid suits, and 2 in H. "

If you were my partner and I doubled, would you have taken the message that I had some strength, and no suit?  Or a suit, but it wasn't hearts?  Or I had takeout double shape?

As to vulnerability, both NV, as I should have specified.

BTW, pickup opps too, no convention card or alerting so that my p would know 3S was Bergen (though it must have been given the hcp).

The key point I see (in retrospect) is that our side shouldn't play the contract unless we have a spade fit, or I have an excellent 6 card minor. If I had had 4 spades and 5 diamonds (with say an A or KJ in spades), should I have bid 4S?

[the hog]

"If you were my partner and I doubled, would you have taken the message that I had some strength, and no suit?  Or a suit, but it wasn't hearts?  Or I had takeout double shape?"

The auction (3H) X (4H) X
basically shows values and no good suit to bid. The reason for this is that it is most unlikely that you will ever have a trump stack to make such a x once you get a pre empt and a raise. Ben suggests looking at the law of total tricks to see if you should be bidding. In this auction, give them 10 trumps; if you have 4S add that to your pd's presumed 4. This makes a total of 18 tricks on the hand, as mentioned by Ben. You basically make a decision to bid on that and the vulnerability. Its not infallible but it is a reasonable guide

Regarding doubling with a doubleton in their suit - the purer the shape, the fewer hcp you really need, (within reason)
I would x 1H on Kxxx xx AKx Qxxx
and on Kxxx x Kxxx Axxx

When they pre empt at higher levels, you need either good shape or compensating hcp. Don't get too carried away with the latter
AQx
KJx
AKJx
xxx
is not a x, but rather a 3NT bid over 3H. Sure you may well not make; you may be doubled, but cest la vie. Expecting partner to protect with
xxx
xx
Qxxxx
Axx
is too much, and you have a decent play for 9 tricks.
The 3NT bid over a pre empt is fairly wide ranging - anything from the above to
xx
Ax
AKQxxxx
Ax