[bigmax]

Reverse Flannery responce to 1minor opening seems to mesh quite well with modern standard. Getting out of the way 4h 5s hands shd allow for many more better 2nd round actions ( for instance
1♣ -1♠
2♦ generic 17+
...........2♥ 8+hcp
...........2♠ <8, 5+s could be light and so on.

Could players with expirience of using these methods comment on its merits. What are continuation after 1m - 2♥?

Thanks

[mike777]

Most of the time you just pass or correct.
Raise =invite, simple!

I combine this with CrissCross and love it.
1minor=2s=invite in minor, unbalanced hand
1Minor=jump shift in other minor=game force in first minor, unbalanced hand.
Now you can get rid of inverted minors.

[han]

It is useful in many more acutions, for instance:

1D-1S
2C

Most would play 2H here as fourth suit GF, which would hurt you if you are weak with 5-4 or better in the majors.

1D-1S
2D

1C-1S
2C

Same idea here, most play 2H as forcing.

I like to play 1m-2H as 5-8 pts, 1m-2S as 9-11, both 5+ ♠ amd 4+♥. Opener can bid:

2S (over 2H): to play.
2NT: inquiry, at least invitational. then:
-> 3C= ~5413
-> 3D= ~5431
-> 3H= 5422 min.
-> 3S= 64(21)
->3NT= 5422 max.
->4C= 5512
->4D= 5521
->4H=65 in the majors
->4S=74 in the majors
3C, 3D: natural nonforcing (except when reverse, then natural and forcing)
3H: to play over 2S, invitational with short spades over 2H.
3S: invitational with short hearts.
3NT: to play.

Very natural, but does everything you need.

[bigmax]

I think some 2nt ask is needed. This morning I was trying it for the 1st time with my reg. pd and 2nd hand of the session was:

Scoring: IMP

---

Our bidding was
1♦-2♥
3♣-3♦
3♠-4♠ Here my partner bid 6d god dbled and made it with both black kings favorably placed. Wonder what is best contract and how science shd have handled it

[han]

You definitely need a 2NT ask. Better not to play gadgets then to play gadgets without disucssing the follow-ups. I also recommend using 1D-2H-3C as non-forcing.

With these hands I would just bid 1D-2H-4S.

[mike777]

bigmax, on Oct 21 2005, 11:46 AM, said:

I think some 2nt ask is needed. This morning I was trying it for the 1st time with my reg. pd and 2nd hand of the session was:

Dealer: North Vul: ???? Scoring: IMP

♠ AQJ ♥   ♦ KQT9x ♣ AQxxx ♠ T9xxx ♥ Txxx ♦ Axx ♣ x

Our bidding was
1♦-2♥
3♣-3♦
3♠-4♠  Here my partner bid 6d god dbled and made it with both black kings favorably placed. Wonder what is best contract and how science shd have handled it

Huh?

Why not just a simple 4s, why complicate your bidding so much? Note the perfect fit and 2 finesses.

I see this all the time. Take a perfectly simple and cosmic convention, Reverse Flannery, and rather than just simpy use the convention and move on but misuse it with bidding 3clubs or complicate the heck out it. .

Makes me think of 2/1 game force except 2/1 is not game force in many situations, you figure it out Enjoy!

[bigmax]

mike777, on Oct 21 2005, 11:56 AM, said:

Huh?

Why not just a simple 4s, why complicate your bidding so much? Note the perfect fit and 2 finesses.

I see this all the time. Take a perfectly simple and cosmic convention, Reverse Flannery, and rather than just simpy use the convention and move on but misuse it with bidding 3clubs or complicate the heck out it. .

Makes me think of 2/1 game force except 2/1 is not game force in many situations, you figure it out Enjoy!

I dont like our action myself. Actually ♣K drop 3rd - no entrances for c finesse. And 6♠ by N seems to be good slam.

[bigmax]

Hannie, on Oct 21 2005, 11:39 AM, said:

2NT: inquiry, at least invitational. then:
-> 3C= ~5413
-> 3D= ~5431
-> 3H= 5422 min.
-> 3S= 64(21)
->3NT= 5422 max.
->4C= 5512
->4D= 5521
->4H=65 in the majors
->4S=74 in the majors
3C, 3D: natural nonforcing (except when reverse, then natural and forcing)
3H: to play over 2S, invitational with short spades over 2H.
3S: invitational with short hearts.
3NT: to play.

Very natural, but does everything you need.

what about 1m - 2h - 2N

3m - any min - allowing to play 6-? fit in openers minor
3om - Max, 3card fit in pd m
3h - Max, 3 card in other minor

The rest as per Hannie post. Is it improvement over generic Flannery responces?

[han]

No it is not an improvement (my humble opinion). This ask will come up only rarely, keep it natural. As the range is fairly small already, priority should be given to shape.

[pclayton]

Fred had some article on this a number of years ago, and my pard and I play play it pretty much per his dogma:

Over 1 of a minor:

2♥ is 5+ 4+ with 5-9
2♠ is exactly 5-4 with 9-11

Over 2H: 2N is a Lebensohl type bid to get back to a minor or to make a slam try in a major. 3C asks more info about the relative suit lengths.

Over 2S: 2N is lebensohlish and 3C asks for a s/v.

Yeah I love it too - it solves a headache in standard bidding.

[Al_U_Card]

Another variant is the Cheaper Jump shift. It can be played several ways depending on your methods (CBS NMF 1-way 2-way xyz etc.)

over 1 of a minor, the cheapest J/S is 5S and 4H with 6-9 hcp and the next cheapest J/S is 4S and 5H with 6-9 hcp. viz

1C-2D shows 5S and 4H
1C-2H shows 4S and 5H

1D-2H shows 5S and 4H
1D-2S shows 4S and 5H

[han]

Some comments:

(1) with 4-5 in the majors you usually do fine by responding 1H. What is the reason for using a jump shift to show this hand pattern? It's not like we have too many jump shifts.

(2) I think that you should switch the two bids. With 4-5 you are more likely to want to play in hearts, so I would not like to bid 2S with that over 1D.

(3) The second jump shift looks a lot like Flannery.

[Al_U_Card]

We have been playing this for about 10 sessions only. We suppress a 4 card S suit to bid 1NT on balanced hands and even over 1C-1D with 4-4 in the majors.

It has come up 3 times, (3 times more than a WJS showing a 6 card suit and 0-3 hcp) with pretty good results.

I don't feel strongly about the distribution issue, per se.

[han]

Al_U_Card, on Oct 21 2005, 03:35 PM, said:

We have been playing this for about 10 sessions only. We suppress a 4 card S suit to bid 1NT on balanced hands and even over 1C-1D with 4-4 in the majors.

It has come up 3 times, (3 times more than a WJS showing a 6 card suit and 0-3 hcp) with pretty good results.

I don't feel strongly about the distribution issue, per se.

That makes sense, if you play this then you can rebid 1NT with balanced hands without the danger of missing a 4-4 spade fit.

As for your data, why are you comparing it with weak jump shifts and 0-3 HCP's. This seems very restrictive, and 0-3 point hands come up very infrequently. Is 4-5 in the majors with 6-9 pts more likely than 6+ spades and (say) 2-6 pts? My estimate is that it will be close.

At first 3 times in 10 sessions suggest that this is not very useful, but if you count the negative inferences too then you gain more often.

(Still think that you should switch the meanings )

[luke warm]

Hannie, on Oct 21 2005, 03:17 PM, said:

Some comments:

(1) with 4-5 in the majors you usually do fine by responding 1H. What is the reason for using a jump shift to show this hand pattern? It's not like we have too many jump shifts.

i agree... also, when i play r.f. i prefer to play it like phil posted (fred's way)

[Al_U_Card]

luke warm, on Oct 23 2005, 04:54 PM, said:

Hannie, on Oct 21 2005, 03:17 PM, said:

Some comments:

(1) with 4-5 in the majors you usually do fine by responding 1H. What is the reason for using a jump shift to show this hand pattern? It's not like we have too many jump shifts.

i agree... also, when i play r.f. i prefer to play it like phil posted (fred's way)

Main reason (like most WJS) is to accurately describe the hand while stealing as much bidding space from the opps as possible. The version of CBS that I play (which isn't 2-way, but I like what I have seen about it so far.....) covers most major suit holdings by responder except those weak (6-9) reverse types.

I understand the above arguments and can only say that I am trying it this way within the context of our system and partnership for now. Things can and do change (hopefully for the better) with time.....and I appreciate your comments and suggestions.

[pclayton]

As of a month ago, my pard and I have officially dropped every WJS we used to play.

JS's are either: Bergen, Rev Flannery, Flip-Flop or Fitted.

I don't miss them a bit.

[mike777]

pclayton, on Oct 24 2005, 11:09 AM, said:

As of a month ago, my pard and I have officially dropped every WJS we used to play.

JS's are either: Bergen, Rev Flannery, Flip-Flop or Fitted.

I don't miss them a bit.

AMEN Brother, welcome to the fold!

[Al_U_Card]

pclayton, on Oct 24 2005, 11:09 AM, said:

JS's are either: Bergen, Rev Flannery, Flip-Flop or Fitted.

Please enlighten me as to the nature of the Flip-Flop. tnx

[mike777]

Al_U_Card, on Oct 24 2005, 01:15 PM, said:

pclayton, on Oct 24 2005, 11:09 AM, said:

JS's are either: Bergen, Rev Flannery, Flip-Flop or Fitted.

Please enlighten me as to the nature of the Flip-Flop. tnx

When Flip-Flop is agreed then:
1) After a minor suit opening and a takeout double, a jump to two notrump shows a preemptive raise for opener's minor suit (alert)
2) After a minor suit opening bid and a takeout double, a jump raise of the minor suit shows a limit raise. (9+ to 12- hcp) (alert).

Gain is to have the takeout doubler on opening lead, not knowing what partner's long suit might be, and leading away from the values known to be held. This gets 3nt right sided.

Probably not that important a convention but better than WJS in uncontested auctions