[luke warm]

you're playing 2 over 1 with a 12-14 1NT... a 2NT response to 1M shows 16+ HCP with 4+ card support... assuming 2NT asks, what answer from opener is most important to you?

Ogust (11-14 considered minimum hand, 15+ max)
Shape (transfers to 2nd suit, 3NT for 5332)
Controls (3C=2, etc)
or something else

i'd be interested in your reasons also

[Walddk]

Minimum or extras. If extras, I'd like him to show a shortage right away. If minimum, I'd like him to give me that info first (3♣ any minimum). Then I can always ask for shortage later if I'm strong enough.

Roland

[Trpltrbl]

I think you are asking what responses you like to 2 NT, after pd opens 1M.
3♣ any minimum hand
3♦ extra's with no singleton or void
3♥ singleton♣ with extra's
3♠ singleton ♦ with extra's
3NT singleton in other major with extra's
4♣ ♣void with extra's
4♦ ♦void with extra's
4♥ void in other major with extra's

After 3 ♣ responder can ask with 3♦ asks for shortness somewhere and tends to deny any shortness in own hand.
3♥ shows ♣ shortness.
3♠ shows ♦ shortness.
3NT shows other major suit shortness.
4♣ denies shortness and is cuebid.
4♦ denies shortness and is cuebid.
4♥ denies shortness and is cuebid ( when ♠ was opening suit )

Or after 3♣ responder can show
3♥ shows ♣ shortness and some interest.
3♠ shows ♦ shortness and some interest.
3NT shows shortness in other major and some interest.


GBB

[FrancesHinden]

Yes, it sounds as if you are asking for what people play. I play generally play shape first, then range, then controls but responder can change the order in some cases.

1S - 2NT 16+ or equivalant, 4+ trumps
3C = no shortage (3D relay, further relays to identify exact shape if required)
3D/H/S = shortages with no second 5-card suit (relay to find out singleton or void followed by range ask followed by control ask)
Higher = specific unusual shapes (starting with all the 5-5s first then some specific 7222 and 6322 ranges which didn't fit into the 3C bid)

After we finish with shape relays, responder can ask range (<=14, 15+) then RKCB and specific suit high card asks.

Responder can omit the first relay to show some specific hand types or to demand cue bidding.

This is all very cute, but outside bidding challenges (where you get to your 7D contract in the 4-3 fit)
- the full relays rarely come up because you usually sign off earlier
- when they do you normally take longer to get to the same contract they reached at the other table with Blackwood

The biggest benefit from all this kit is not bidding grand slams, but staying at the 4-level when less sophisticated methods end up at the 5-level.

[awm]

With 2NT showing 16+ points, I'd actually prefer shape first. Opener doesn't need any extras for us to have a slam opposite sixteen points and four-card support from responder. If responder has something like Axx(x) opposite singleton we are off to the races even on 27-28 high.

If 2NT was "any 4+ card support game force" or even "limit-plus" then I agree with separating minimum or maximum first and shape second, since slam will often be out of reach when opener is minimum even if the hands fit well (and may as well give less info to opponents in this case).

[luke warm]

i appreciate all the replies... for those who prefer shape first, do you think it's better to show shortness before a 2nd suit? the reason i ask is, it seems easier to relay for short suits after 2nd suit is known than vice versa

i'm doing a FD 1M : 2NT thingy and i do want 16+ to be required (everything else is covered), but since responder is so strong it struck me that he might want to know something specific, and fairly quickly, as slam isn't far off

[Rebound]

Thank you for starting this thread. Although I have not, up to now, I am preparing to play such a structure with my current partner.

If I may digress for a moment, over a weak 2 opening, my belief is that 2NT is reserved for hands where the immediate question is: Is there a game? Then which one: 3NT or 4 of the major? Therefore the response is 3♣, any min, all other bids, shape showing with extras*. The opportunity remains to re-ask the second question with 3♦.

To me, the given situation is simply a corollary. Is there a slam? If so, which one?


*This has a rather loose definition in my mind. But it should probably be fairly clearly defined in the case of 1M - 2NT.

This post has been edited by Rebound: 2005-October-17, 15:28

[han]

I would also prefer shape first, and shortness seems more important than side suits. However, with many 5-5 hands I would prefer to show the 5-card suit, so it would be nice if this option was avalable too. I think voids and singletons can be compressed. Responder can then ask with the cheapest step (1st step = singleton, no extras, 2nd = singleton, extras, 3rd = void, no extras, 4th = void, extras).

I realize that you are probably not interested in hearing this, but I'm going to say it anyway . I think that 16+ is far too restrictive for 2NT. 2NT is a fairly low and very useful bid, not to be wasted for hands that come up so rarely.

[Rebound]

Hannie, on Oct 17 2005, 05:28 PM, said:

I think that 16+ is far too restrictive for 2NT. 2NT is a fairly low and very useful bid, not to be wasted for hands that come up so rarely.

I agree. I intend to use 2NT for any relatively balanced hand which can confidently ask at least the "which game?" question in my previous post.

[Fluffy]

Shortnes is normally the most important

[luke warm]

Hannie said:

I think that 16+ is far too restrictive for 2NT. 2NT is a fairly low and very useful bid, not to be wasted for hands that come up so rarely.

it's true that 16+ comes up relatively rarely, however when it does come up i think you'd appreciate the exploration room... besides, all other strengths/shapes are already covered via over/under jump shifts, bergen, etc

i'd already pretty much narrowed it to shape or trump quality... fwiw, here's what i had in mind for each:

3c=11-14, 1 top honor
3d=11-14, 2 tops
3h=15+, 1 top
3s=15+, 2 tops
3nt=all 3 tops

or

3c=4+ diamonds
3d=4+ hearts (or 6+ if hearts opened)
3h=4+ spades (or 6+ if spades opened)
3s=4+ clubs
3nt=all 5332 hands, 15+ systemically

with further relays... for 6/4 it'd be judgment what to show... but since some damn good players have said they prefer shortness, maybe a combination of some of the ideas shown above:

3c=undisclosed stiff

• 3d asks
  • 3h=clubs
    
  • 3s=diamonds
    
  • 3nt=OM

3d=undisclosed void

• 3h asks
  • 3s=clubs
    
  • 3nt=diamonds
    
  • 4c=OM

3h=all 5422

• 3s asks
  • 3nt=(25)24
    
  • 4c=(25)42
    
  • 4d=(45)22

3s=all 6322 or 7222 hands

• 3nt asks
  • 4c=high shortage first, 223 or 222
    
  • 4d=etc
    
  • 4h=etc

3nt=all 5332 (again, 15+ per force)

over 3nt, maybe 4c can ask controls, can be rkc, or maybe just let responder use asking bids... anyway, i think it's more important to differentiate between minimum/extras when 2nt can be 12/13+, but i could be wrong

thanks for some great thoughts, and if you have more please post them... also, feel free to point out any holes in what i posted... my thinking is, on auctions that have slam potential *someone* should be captain... i think that when responder has such a hand the odds are he's the stronger partner so should probably do the asking... that too could be wrong

[FrancesHinden]

luke warm, on Oct 17 2005, 04:17 PM, said:

i appreciate all the replies... for those who prefer shape first, do you think it's better to show shortness before a 2nd suit? the reason i ask is, it seems easier to relay for short suits after 2nd suit is known than vice versa

i'm doing a FD 1M : 2NT thingy and i do want 16+ to be required (everything else is covered), but since responder is so strong it struck me that he might want to know something specific, and fairly quickly, as slam isn't far off

The reason we went for shortness before side suit is that shortness gives you more information in fewer bids.

We show 5-5s and 6-5s immediately (via a jump), so shortness is usually a 5431 (just on frequency grounds) or alternatively 6421/7321/5440/6430/7330

Showing shortage first tells partner you have 0 or 1 cards in the shortage suit, and that you have 2-4, usually 3-4 cards in the two side suits. That means you know partner's side suit lengths usually to within one card, and always to within two. We've decided that distinguishing between the singleton and void is the most important next step, though it's not entirely obvious that is true.

If you show a 4-card side suit first, then partner knows nothing about the other two suits: you could have 0,1,2 or 3 (or 4 if 5440) cards in them.

Our relay system was written to allow the most frequent shapes to have the lowest bids, so that on average you get most room. So 5332s come first.

[Echognome]

There was a discussion on this before in the non-natural system discussion.

First, I agree with some of the others that 2NT is a bit wasted on 16+ hands. If you want to play GF hands, then fine. Personally, I prefer limit-plus so I can use my other raises preemptively, but can live with GF.

Second, I can say that when I went through this discussion a few months back, I sat down and simply generated hands. I can tell you that I went through a couple hundred hands before deciding what I thought was best. I wish I had the time and energy to go through more, but it's not a simple matter of simulation. What I found was that it was useful to identify shortness, often more so than a second suit UNLESS you placed a further restriction on most of your high cards being in your long suits, in which case second suits were very descriptive. I say this in the pretext that you will take more bidding space showing your second suit because the hand type is rarer. I don't consider 5-4 to be 2-suited. If you show a second suit, then a 6 ace asking keycard is much better especially if you include an ask for a specific Q. In delicate slam auctions knowing singleton or void can be very useful. I leave it as an open debate whether a singleton A should be shown as a void. Looking at it, on some hands it was extremely useful and on others, it made responder devalue Kx(x)(x) or KQx(x) which would have provided a useful discard. I find showing shortness leaves plenty of room after a keycard ask to ask for specific cards outside of the trump suit (as you only have 2 other suits to check). However, this is in part because we ask keycard at a fairly low level.

[Chamaco]

I want to know these 2 issues:

a. 3 ranges of strength:
...-a. "Sorry p my opening was a joke" (e.g. subminimum hands, in the 10-12 hcp range)
...-b "Hey p, for once I have a sound, normal opening"
...-c "I've got a reverse"

b- sources of tricks: E.g. *this is NOT shape, but involves honors concentration*, for instance, if I have 55 and a BAD side suit, I won't show it, or if I have a stiff honor, I won't show the shortness.
...- GOOD sidesuit with 55+
...- GOOD sidesuit in 64 or better (side 4 bagger)
...- singleton(no honors)/void

[kenrexford]

The answer I want is to the question, "Why are we playing this 2NT bid?"

I am convinced that sound cuebidding makes Jacoby 2NT useless, if playing 2.1 GF. Force game, then set trumps. Shape and controls and HCP's and all that will come out.

I like, better, 2NT as something else.

Over 1S, I like 2NT as GF with 5+ hearts. This makes 1S-P-2H show 9-12 (or 8-11 if Roth-Stone openings), passable. This enables, if you want, 1S-P-1NT-P-2C-P-2D to guarantee either the strong club raise or the strong doubleton spade raise parts of BART, an enhancement.

But, given the parameters of an agreed 16+, I like pattern. Partner has the stronger hand and needs to know the value of his cards.

[Walddk]

Let me introduce Bekkasin, used by the majority of Danish top players after 1MA-2NT:

3♣: Any minimum (one exception, see later).
3♦: Extras, no shortage.
3♥: Extras, singleton club.
3♠: Extras, singleton diamond.
3N: Extras, singleton other major.
4x: Void. Either minimum or very strong. Responder assumes minimum. With the strong hand responder will bid again.

After 3♣ responder has the option of showing shortage (as above) or asking for shortage (3♦). Responses as above. 4 in the agreed major shows absolute minimum, whereas with no shortage but a good minimum one can cue bid at the 4-level below the trump suit.

After 3♦ by opener, responder is obliged to show a shortage as above. With no shortage, responder will bid 4 of the agreed major with minimum or 4 in a suit below the trump suit as a cue bid.

Roland

[luke warm]

ok, thanks roland and mike for the danish perspective...thanks everyone else for all your expert comments... not sure if this is right place for it, but here's the FD 2NT/1M file:

*00{Jacoby 2NT}=NYYYYYY2 over 1 game force, forcing 1NT, weak 1NT opening (12-14)
501H=NYYYYYY2585+ hearts, 11-21
501HP2N=NYYYYYYD16+ HCP, 4+ card support, asking bid
501HP2NP3C=NYYYYYY608Any 11-14 HCP hand
501HP2NP3CP3D=NYYYYYYD08Asks for short suit, slam interest
501HP2NP3CP3DP3H=NYYYYYY601Club shortness
501HP2NP3CP3DP3S=NYYYYYY601Diamond shortness
501HP2NP3CP3DP3N=NYYYYYY6Shortness in other major
501HP2NP3CP3DP4C=NYYYYYY825No shortness, cuebid
501HP2NP3CP3DP4D=NYYYYYY825No shortness, cuebid
501HP2NP3CP3DP4H=NYYYYYY258No shortness, may or may not have spade control
501HP2NP3CP3H=NYYYYYY748Club shortness, slam interest
501HP2NP3CP3S=NYYYYYY708Diamond shortness, slam interest
501HP2NP3CP3N=NYYYYYY7Shortness in other major, slam interest
501HP2NP3D=NYYYYYY608Any 15+ HCP hand with no stiff or void
501HP2NP3DP3H=NYYYYYY648Short club
501HP2NP3DP3S=NYYYYYY608Short diamond
501HP2NP3DP3N=NYYYYYY6Short other major
501HP2NP3DP4C=NYYYYYY808No shortage, cuebid
501HP2NP3DP4D=NYYYYYY808No shortage, cuebid
501HP2NP3DP4H=NYYYYYY00816-17/18 HCP, no shortage
501HP2NP3H=NYYYYYY658Stiff club, 15+ HCP
501HP2NP3S=NYYYYYY608Stiff diamond, 15+ HCP
501HP2NP3N=NYYYYYY6Stiff in other major, 15+ HCP
501HP2NP4C=NYYYYYY600Void club, 15+ HCP
501HP2NP4D=NYYYYYY600Void diamond, 15+ HCP
501HP2NP4H=NYYYYYY600Void other major, 15+ HCP
501S=NYYYYYY2585+ spades, 11-21
501SP2N=NYYYYYY616+ HCP, 4+ spades
501SP2NP3C=NYYYYYY608Any 11-14 HCP hand
501SP2NP3CP3D=NYYYYYYD08Asks for short suit, slam interest
501SP2NP3CP3DP3H=NYYYYYY601Club shortness
501SP2NP3CP3DP3S=NYYYYYY601Diamond shortness
501SP2NP3CP3DP3N=NYYYYYY6Shortness in other major
501SP2NP3CP3DP4C=NYYYYYY825No shortness, cuebid
501SP2NP3CP3DP4D=NYYYYYY825No shortness, cuebid
501SP2NP3CP3DP4H=NYYYYYY258No shortness, may or may not have spade control
501SP2NP3CP3H=NYYYYYY748Club shortness, slam interest
501SP2NP3CP3S=NYYYYYY708Diamond shortness, slam interest
501SP2NP3CP3N=NYYYYYY7Shortness in other major, slam interest
501SP2NP3D=NYYYYYY608Any 15+ HCP hand with no stiff or void
501SP2NP3DP3H=NYYYYYY648Short club
501SP2NP3DP3S=NYYYYYY608Short diamond
501SP2NP3DP3N=NYYYYYY6Short other major
501SP2NP3DP4C=NYYYYYY808No shortage, cuebid
501SP2NP3DP4D=NYYYYYY808No shortage, cuebid
501SP2NP3DP4H=NYYYYYY808No shortage, cuebid
501SP2NP3DP4S=NYYYYYY00816-17/18 HCP, no shortage
501SP2NP3H=NYYYYYY658Stiff club, 15+ HCP
501SP2NP3S=NYYYYYY608Stiff diamond, 15+ HCP
501SP2NP3N=NYYYYYY6Stiff in other major, 15+ HCP
501SP2NP4C=NYYYYYY600Void club, 15+ HCP
501SP2NP4D=NYYYYYY600Void diamond, 15+ HCP
501SP2NP4H=NYYYYYY600Void other major, 15+ HCP