[Double !]

The following hand came up during a practice bidding session with an excellent bridge partner that raises the issue of how to distinguish between two types of hands that differ by only one card. The first hand was the actual one dealt. The second has been constructed for the purpose of this post.

Hand A:
♠ AQJxxx
♥ x
♦ x
♣ AK8xx


You open 1S, partner responds 2 diamonds. What is your plan for bidding this hand. Should you choose a 3-club rebid, partner will then rebid 3NT. What is your choice then?



Hand B: constructed for contrast
♠ AQJxx
♥ xx
♦ x
♣ AK8xx


How do you bid this hand? For starters, not playing some specialized opener (e.g., no 2S opener to show C-S 2-suiter), what would be your opening bid? If you select 1 spade, partner will respond 2 diamonds. Take it from there. The implications of how you all handle these two hands might or might not be as significant as I perceive.

as always, thank you all in advance.

DHL

[mikestar]

Jlall, on Oct 10 2005, 02:53 PM, said:

hand 1...3C-4C

hand 2...3C-pass.

Agree 100%. 1♠-2♦-3♣-3NT-4♣ implies 6-5 or better precisely because you would pass 3NT on 5-5.

[pclayton]

Yeah I agree with JL although with the 2nd I'm probably fidgeting with the 4♣ card a bit before the Green card comes out.

3♣ is a pretty damn good description of that hand - extras! I love the controls, but Hamman's rule is on here.

[han]

My excellent bridge partner had a similar hand when praticing some bidding yesterday.

I had xx AQx AQxxx Jxx. Over 4C, I didn't know whether partner was 6-5 or rather very strong with 5-5. We got to 6C, which seems ok. I don;t know how to distinguish between those two kinds of hands either.

[Double !]

To foment more discussion: are you saying that a 4C bid strongly suggests a 6-card spade suit (the key issue IMO), and/or a very strong 5-card club suit such as AKQxx?
I always have problems with these inferences and seem to get them wrong.
What agreements do you have regarding the meaning of responder's next bid over 4C? (e.g.: 4D = cue establishing clubs, what do 4H and 4NT mean? Is 4S/4C a simple preference showing xx of spades and denying slam interest [insufficient aces in the red suits] or is it forward-going showing Hx or even stiff high honor?)

again, TIA

DHL

[whereagles]

Jlall, on Oct 10 2005, 02:53 PM, said:

hand 1...3C-4C

hand 2...3C-pass.

This seems sensible. Hand 1 has lots of potential on its own. Hand 2 not that much, so pass is better.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

assuming that 3C does not promise
more, 3C with both hands.

With the 1st hand 4C over 3NT is
clear cut, you dont want to play 3NT
with 6-5.
with the 2nd hand I would Pass.

4C does not show 6-5, merely that you
dont want to play NT.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

Jlall, on Oct 10 2005, 11:56 AM, said:

4D=cue for clubs
4H=cue for clubs
4S=preference
4N=to play.

I agree, although 4NT should be
very rare, because you should cue,
if you have a control for partner.

Marlowe

[han]

I disagree, 4NT should not deny a control. With mostly minor honors in the red suits and close to a minimum you should bid 4NT, e.g. xx AQJx KQJxx xx should definitely bid 4NT.

[P_Marlowe]

Hannie, on Oct 10 2005, 01:05 PM, said:

I disagree, 4NT should not deny a control. With mostly minor honors in the red suits and close to a minimum you should bid 4NT, e.g. xx AQJx KQJxx xx should definitely bid 4NT.

Of course a matter of agreement, but how do you
know, that partner does not have a very strong 2
suiter, e.g. with singleton top hour in hearts or
diamonds?

He may have a freak or a strong 5-5, he asked
you to show were your honours are.
I would follow the reqeust.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Double !]

Hannie, on Oct 10 2005, 01:05 PM, said:

I disagree, 4NT should not deny a control. With mostly minor honors in the red suits and close to a minimum you should bid 4NT, e.g. xx AQJx KQJxx xx should definitely bid 4NT.

I agree with Hannie:

If one thinks about it, it most unlikely that the NT hand lacks controls: where is his bid? To me, 4NT says, "I heard you pull 3NT, I hear your warning, you have a concentrated black 2-suiter. I have a better idea of your hand than you have of mine. Given what you've told me so far, I believe that the hand should be played from my side (the 4NT bidder's side) in 4NT.

[Double !]

I've been trying to decide what responder should do over 3C with Hx in spades, a good honor in clubs, and prime honors in red suits. Something like Kx, KTx, AQxxx, Qxx. IMO, I suggest a 3H rebid. Again, as in one of the recent BPO hands, the issue is how to get to a 6-2 spade fit and differentiate between xx and Hx support for spades. Use of 4th suit followed by preference to spades might be one way to differentiate, but then P might have xx in hearts and be unsure how to proceed, although I believe that a further cue bid should be like a last train showing concern about the 4th suit. Does this make sense?

TIA

DHL

[han]

With that hand, I would bid 3H as you suggest. When partner bids 3NT I know that we have all suits under control and I would pass. Over 3S (which now doesn't show 6) I would raise. Partner would probably expect Hx in spades. (with xx xxx AKJxx KQx I would bid 4C over 3S, not 4S.)

Isn't bidding hands on BBO great fun!

[Double !]

Han:

not just fun, but addicting!


I managed to virtually escape the addiction for over 15 years for the most part, maybe longer: have now had a full-blown relapse. Need detoxification. At least most of the people I have met on BBO are good and pleasant, unlike many I knew or met in the real world.

DHL

[HeartA]

With 5-5 two black suits (like hand 2), I usually open 1♣.

[Double !]

HeartA, on Oct 10 2005, 05:07 PM, said:

With 5-5 two black suits (like hand 2), I usually open 1♣.

Aha,

An honest person who perceived the other issue involved here. Not advocating 1C or 1S as the correct opening bid (not bidding spades 1st admittedly risks pre-emption) but, should the partnership agree to open clubs first with 5-5, then this helps to clarify the 6-5 issue considerably.

DHL

[Fluffy]

First 3♣ then 4♠

second one rebid 2♠, ,doe she bid 3NT still?