Help
I need an opinion on GCC rules......I opened 2NT and partner alerted explaining 2NT shows at least 5-5 in the Minors and zero to 15 HCP. Opponents blew a gasket, claiming range is too large and it's akin to a psychic. Director didn't know..... I am not asking about wisdom of a wide range I am asking about the ACBL rules. Was my bid and partner's explanation legal ? Appreciate any response from anyone who knows with certainty
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2NT opening - atleast 5-5 in Minors little help ?
#2
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Posted 2014-August-07, 17:04
The GCC explictly allows: "6. OPENING NOTRUMP BID AT THE TWO LEVEL OR HIGHER indicating at least 5-4 distribution in the minors."
Note that this is separate and distinct from "8. OPENING BID AT THE TWO LEVEL OR HIGHER indicating two known suits, a minimum of 10 HCP and at least 5–4 distribution in the suits."
To me, this indicates that the 2NT opening can show any range. However, you may run into trouble with your response structure since most responses will be sanctioned under:
"ARTIFICIAL AND CONVENTIONAL CALLS after strong (15+ HCP), forcing opening bids and after opening bids of two clubs or higher. (For
this classification, by partnership agreement, weak two-bids must be within a range of 7 HCP and the suit must contain at least five
cards – See #7 under DISALLOWED.)"
Note that this is separate and distinct from "8. OPENING BID AT THE TWO LEVEL OR HIGHER indicating two known suits, a minimum of 10 HCP and at least 5–4 distribution in the suits."
To me, this indicates that the 2NT opening can show any range. However, you may run into trouble with your response structure since most responses will be sanctioned under:
"ARTIFICIAL AND CONVENTIONAL CALLS after strong (15+ HCP), forcing opening bids and after opening bids of two clubs or higher. (For
this classification, by partnership agreement, weak two-bids must be within a range of 7 HCP and the suit must contain at least five
cards – See #7 under DISALLOWED.)"
Alderaan delenda est
#3
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Posted 2014-August-07, 17:13
hrothgar, on 2014-August-07, 17:04, said:
The GCC explictly allows: "6. OPENING NOTRUMP BID AT THE TWO LEVEL OR HIGHER indicating at least 5-4 distribution in the minors."
Note that this is separate and distinct from "8. OPENING BID AT THE TWO LEVEL OR HIGHER indicating two known suits, a minimum of 10 HCP and at least 54 distribution in the suits."
To me, this indicates that the 2NT opening can show any range. However, you may run into trouble with your response structure since most responses will be sanctioned under:
"ARTIFICIAL AND CONVENTIONAL CALLS after strong (15+ HCP), forcing opening bids and after opening bids of two clubs or higher. (For
this classification, by partnership agreement, weak two-bids must be within a range of 7 HCP and the suit must contain at least five
cards See #7 under DISALLOWED.)"
Note that this is separate and distinct from "8. OPENING BID AT THE TWO LEVEL OR HIGHER indicating two known suits, a minimum of 10 HCP and at least 54 distribution in the suits."
To me, this indicates that the 2NT opening can show any range. However, you may run into trouble with your response structure since most responses will be sanctioned under:
"ARTIFICIAL AND CONVENTIONAL CALLS after strong (15+ HCP), forcing opening bids and after opening bids of two clubs or higher. (For
this classification, by partnership agreement, weak two-bids must be within a range of 7 HCP and the suit must contain at least five
cards See #7 under DISALLOWED.)"
ok...you lost me a little bit on the responses...Partner bids 3C or 3D over my 2NT and is to play....Partner bids 3H (or 3S) to ask about my A-K-Q holdings in Clubs or Diamonds respectively...All other Partner bids are natural...You see this as a problem ?
#4
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Posted 2014-August-07, 17:21
You could stop playing conventions with little merit since they have absurdly wide ranges.
It seems to me you are focused too much on trying to bash bunnies - just a thought.
It seems to me you are focused too much on trying to bash bunnies - just a thought.
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Posted 2014-August-07, 17:31
Shugart23, on 2014-August-07, 17:13, said:
ok...you lost me a little bit on the responses...Partner bids 3C or 3D over my 2NT and is to play....Partner bids 3H (or 3S) to ask about my A-K-Q holdings in Clubs or Diamonds respectively...All other Partner bids are natural...You see this as a problem ?
I think not having a range ask for a bid with a 15 HCP range is insane.
I'd love to see the set of hands where you bid 4m or 4M
Alderaan delenda est
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Posted 2014-August-07, 18:14
A wide range makes a ton of sense in third seat.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."
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Posted 2014-August-07, 18:23
hrothgar, on 2014-August-07, 17:31, said:
I think not having a range ask for a bid with a 15 HCP range is insane.
I'd love to see the set of hands where you bid 4m or 4M
I'd love to see the set of hands where you bid 4m or 4M
as a practical matter , when red, we rarely open 2NT...but maybe with 14 -15 HCP we might...but it is rare....we are much more inclined to open 2NT when white as a pre-emotive bid. But we are now taking off on a tangent I was trying to avoid....was really asking about the legality of it is all..
Since you asked, for preemptive bids at the 4 level, we base our bids strictly on trick count and a lack of defensive values. In 1st or second seat, down 4 with equal vulnerability, down 5 with favorable vulnerability, and down 2 with unfavorable vulnerability. However in 3rd seat, if partner is a passed hand a subtract 1 from the above guidance. Then Partner knows how to precisely set the final contact or whether to avoid the sacrifice....
In 1st or second seat we don't preempt if holding 4 card Major..in 3rd seat we might
This is our scheme when playing Matchpoints...For Imps we play it differently
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Posted 2014-August-07, 18:38
Shugart23, on 2014-August-07, 18:23, said:
Since you asked, for preemptive bids at the 4 level, we base our bids strictly on trick count and a lack of defensive values.
Sorry. I was referring to your 4 level advances over the 2NT opening...
Alderaan delenda est
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Posted 2014-August-07, 20:06
I think this thread should be merged with "Where do bad players get their ideas from."
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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Posted 2014-August-07, 20:44
Shugart23, on 2014-August-07, 18:23, said:
as a practical matter , when red, we rarely open 2NT...but maybe with 14 -15 HCP we might...but it is rare...
I assume you disclose this?
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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Posted 2014-August-08, 00:03
Vampyr, on 2014-August-07, 20:44, said:
I assume you disclose this?
i assume you like impugning other people's ethics.
actually i know you do because you do it often enough.
#12
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Posted 2014-August-08, 02:00
I actually had the same thought wank. Have you never played a against a pair that have a general agreement about a call but in practise play it somewhat differently? There are plenty of players out there that have never even thought about this and think the general agreement is enough (lack of knowledge not poor ethics).
Back to the OP, the only potential problem seems to be the 3M responses. These are conventional and therefore fall foul of Disallowed #7: "CONVENTIONAL RESPONSES <snip> after <snip> weak two-bids which by partnership agreement are not within a range of 7 HCP and or do not show at least five cards in the suit." Make these natural and I think you are good to go.
Back to the OP, the only potential problem seems to be the 3M responses. These are conventional and therefore fall foul of Disallowed #7: "CONVENTIONAL RESPONSES <snip> after <snip> weak two-bids which by partnership agreement are not within a range of 7 HCP and or do not show at least five cards in the suit." Make these natural and I think you are good to go.
(-: Zel :-)
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Posted 2014-August-08, 04:01
I agree that GCC is clear that 2N for minors (5/4+) is allowed with any range. As for continuations, I don't think the "weak two bid range" rules apply to things other than natural weak twos. There is no "5 cards in the suit" of NT, so I don't think applying that makes sense. Hence any conventional responses to a legal, artificial opening of 2♣ or higher seem to be allowed.
Ask the opponent what his range is for 2♣. I'm guessing it's something like 22-40, with exceptions that extend the range on the low end. That's a wider range than yours, if that's the best argument he's got.
Shugart23, on 2014-August-07, 16:55, said:
I need an opinion on GCC rules......I opened 2NT and partner alerted explaining 2NT shows at least 5-5 in the Minors and zero to 15 HCP. Opponents blew a gasket, claiming range is too large and it's akin to a psychic.
Ask the opponent what his range is for 2♣. I'm guessing it's something like 22-40, with exceptions that extend the range on the low end. That's a wider range than yours, if that's the best argument he's got.
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Posted 2014-August-08, 04:22
Thanks all...On the legality issue, I was thinking and continue to now think that the wide range is legal and all the responses are legal at this point. The opening bid itself isn't a great bid and usually does us more harm than good ; as I mentioned earlier, we don't use it very often . The reason we have it in the first place is only because ACBL doesn't allow better uses for opening 2NT (such as a multi-2NT opening) for us.
Points well made and taken regarding full disclosure; Partner and I tend to over disclose most of the time but maybe we need to shore up on this one.
Points well made and taken regarding full disclosure; Partner and I tend to over disclose most of the time but maybe we need to shore up on this one.
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Posted 2014-August-08, 04:26
As for usefulness of 2N for the minors, I normally play it as weak two strength in 1st/2nd (5-11ish), with the caveat that it can also be game or slam forcing where all opener wants is responder's minor suit preference. The range can be wider on the low end, more like OP's, in 3rd/4th.
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Posted 2014-August-08, 05:03
Natural responses obviously are ok. Artificial responses are OK if they ask for Aces, Kings, trump quality, etc., under that even more general provision. So, all seems GCC legal.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."
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Posted 2014-August-08, 05:19
FWIW, if you only open 2N with 14-15 HCP when vulnerable and have a radically different range when NV, then I think that you have an obligation to treat this as two separate opening.
Disclose your vulnerable 2NT opening as showing 5/5/ in the minors with 14-15 HCP
Disclose your NV2NT opening as showing 0-15 or whatever range you use.
If you have additional restrictions (like adopting different ranges by seat) this also needs to be factored into the disclosure.
Disclose your vulnerable 2NT opening as showing 5/5/ in the minors with 14-15 HCP
Disclose your NV2NT opening as showing 0-15 or whatever range you use.
If you have additional restrictions (like adopting different ranges by seat) this also needs to be factored into the disclosure.
Alderaan delenda est
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Posted 2014-August-08, 06:15
hrothgar, on 2014-August-08, 05:19, said:
FWIW, if you only open 2N with 14-15 HCP when vulnerable and have a radically different range when NV, then I think that you have an obligation to treat this as two separate opening.
Disclose your vulnerable 2NT opening as showing 5/5/ in the minors with 14-15 HCP
Disclose your NV2NT opening as showing 0-15 or whatever range you use.
If you have additional restrictions (like adopting different ranges by seat) this also needs to be factored into the disclosure.
Disclose your vulnerable 2NT opening as showing 5/5/ in the minors with 14-15 HCP
Disclose your NV2NT opening as showing 0-15 or whatever range you use.
If you have additional restrictions (like adopting different ranges by seat) this also needs to be factored into the disclosure.
100% agree.....
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Posted 2014-August-08, 09:33
wank, on 2014-August-08, 00:03, said:
i assume you like impugning other people's ethics.
I'm curious. If you want to know if someone is aware he needs to alert some agreement he's mentioned, how would you find out without "impugning his ethics"?
wank, on 2014-August-08, 00:03, said:
actually i know you do because you do it often enough.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
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Posted 2014-August-08, 09:38
blackshoe, on 2014-August-08, 09:33, said:
Pot. Kettle. Black.
interesting. do you have some example links?
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