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When to continue opposite an aggressive preempt?

#21 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2013-April-15, 21:33

View PostJinksy, on 2013-April-15, 11:21, said:

In Fantunes' actual system, they'd open the N hand 1H rather than 2, presumably on the grounds that with both majors the potential downsides of preempting are greater, and the potential upsides smaller.

No matter how much I try to make it fit, I can't see a sensible way of making that work for a mortal partnership without screwing up your slam-seeking sequences (according to Dan O'Neill's transcription IIRC, over a 2/1 GF followed by a bid showing the other major, potentially as weak as this, they just continue the GF...). So our current compromise is just not to open these.

I used to play some version of Fantunes. There were lots of issues we were able to resolve (like 1m-2M GF with 5+M was awful in our opinion) and we experimented with 1M being either 11-13 with 5M-4OM or 14+ with 5+M. We couldn't make this work either. So we went back to opening these 2M and accepted the swings.
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#22 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2013-April-21, 05:03

View PostFree, on 2013-April-15, 21:33, said:

I used to play some version of Fantunes. There were lots of issues we were able to resolve (like 1m-2M GF with 5+M was awful in our opinion) and we experimented with 1M being either 11-13 with 5M-4OM or 14+ with 5+M. We couldn't make this work either. So we went back to opening these 2M and accepted the swings.


Did you ever try passing the weaker 5M4M ones? I haven't yet had a major disaster from it (this hand is probably the worst result in that we missed 3S, and opening 2H would have helped that). I can certainly believe opening them might work better, but if partner knows you could have those hands you seem to lose a lot of the downside of passing them - you're unlikely to be shut out of the auction if the hand belongs to your side.
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#23 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2013-April-21, 09:39

View PostJinksy, on 2013-April-21, 05:03, said:

Did you ever try passing the weaker 5M4M ones? I haven't yet had a major disaster from it (this hand is probably the worst result in that we missed 3S, and opening 2H would have helped that). I can certainly believe opening them might work better, but if partner knows you could have those hands you seem to lose a lot of the downside of passing them - you're unlikely to be shut out of the auction if the hand belongs to your side.

As a mere observer of methods where the given hand doesn't fit into a pair's opening bid structure, my opinion is that passing should be o.k. The OP scenario is not really a good basis for discussion of that issue, since what happened afterward was too weird.
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#24 User is offline   elwood913 

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Posted 2013-April-24, 01:28

I play a fantunes style where:
1M is always 14+
2M is 10-13, any 6+ or 5+ w/ 4+ in a minor (but not some 5422)
2 is both M's. Typically 10-13, any distribution 5+/4+ in the M's (though 12-14, 4-4(41) is possible).

The given hand would fit perfectly into this opening.

We get some of our best results with the 2 bid.
If Resp has enough to ask we can find out about opener's specific distribution and strength, and these auctions are very good. If they don't, we often land in a reasonable 2M partscore and have enjoyed quite a bit of preemption. The overall effect is great. We get a few rotten scores, but the good games and slams, the wins in many partscore battles, and the relatively safe premptive effect when it's their hand far outweigh the few clunkers.
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#25 User is offline   WellSpyder 

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Posted 2013-April-24, 04:42

View Postelwood913, on 2013-April-24, 01:28, said:

I play a fantunes style where:
1M is always 14+
2M is 10-13, any 6+ or 5+ w/ 4+ in a minor (but not some 5422)
2 is both M's. Typically 10-13, any distribution 5+/4+ in the M's (though 12-14, 4-4(41) is possible).

Interesting. What do you do with the hands on which Fantunes would open 2, ie 10-13 with 6+ or 5+4other (not 5422)? With the bottom end of this range you could pass, I guess, but surely not with the top end?
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#26 User is offline   elwood913 

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Posted 2013-April-24, 10:20

We lose a little here, because our 1has to include all unbalanced hands with 's, hence we play it 11+, typically 5+ and an unbalanced hand. Balanced hands with 's open weak NT or 1. So we have to choose at first bid how we want to describe the hand and will often lose the diamonds if we go the balanced route.

Opener's rebid is a little trickier due to the wider range, since p is still forced to bid, but in most cases we can describe our range either 11-14, 15-17, or 18+ and get out our level of support for p or our second suit.
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